ok..little help..

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Not to be a "nay sayer", but IMHO, a starter is not really needed.

For 22 years, I simply sprinkle the dry yeast over the curshed must. I have never has a problem with fermentation kicking off. Of course, I use quality yeast (which may have something to do with it).
Quality Yeast? Please explain. And I would ask the question. If you were teaching someone to make wine would you teach them your method or the one that is accepted generally by commercial winemakers and recommended by yeast manufacturers?
Malvina
 
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rock for 144lbs should i use 3/4 teaspoon and should i mix it with water before i add to fermenter?..thk you
 
Yes,also remember to add your tannin 12 to 24 hrs after adding your enzyme.
 
MS never used them but if you say so.Might try it why would you in the first place?Stuck ferment?I don't intend that to happen.
 
MS never used them but if you say so.Might try it why would you in the first place?Stuck ferment?I don't intend that to happen.
I use them now as standard practice. With the move to using little or no DAP or with minimum Fermaid K which contains DAP. Relying on Fermaid O, yeast hulls are a nutrient that helps absorb poisons which yeast can produce. So I dose at 18 brix and at 10 brix. I can't see any negative reasons not to and the cost is very reasonable. Scott Labs uses them in calculating your YAN additions even though they do not contain any significant nitrogen.
Malvina
 
Great info MS,I add Fermaid K after lag and have used Fermaid O at 15 brix as well.But this is just my choice as I do not go by YAN numbers.I also use Fermaid K at 15 brix without the Fermaid O with great results.May be this year I will give the hulls a try with KGIII grapes if I am lucky enough to have the funds.
 
Great info MS,I add Fermaid K after lag and have used Fermaid O at 15 brix as well.But this is just my choice as I do not go by YAN numbers.I also use Fermaid K at 15 brix without the Fermaid O with great results.May be this year I will give the hulls a try with KGIII grapes if I am lucky enough to have the funds.

I think this brings up the question as to what is the right thing to do and the answer is there are many ways to achieve results. But, a big BUT! I think for a New Winemaker the best advice to give is use "Best Practices" Some of these practices may seem as too much work or unnecessary or even a waste of time to some. But employing "Best Practices" will never steer you wrong. There are winemakers who avoid even using generally accepted practices and they say they have good results. The problem with that is you never tasted their wine and you never hear when their disregard of applying a Best Practice leads to an undesirable effect or end result.

With regards to the nutrient issue. I think the most improvement in nutrient management was the ability to have information regarding the YAN content. This allow us to use less DAP or DAP containing products and we do it without fear of stinky or stuck ferments. Since in the past, our older Best Practice worked well as we basically ball parked the numbers and the additions. Like we did here in Kendo's batch. I think the issue of using less inorganic nitrogen has driven the entire affair. It is over blown? Sometimes I think it might be a bit much. Many Commercial Winemakers still continue to dump in the DAP and let it fly. And let's face it if you want a heat spike DAP is the answer.

New Science, Marketing of new products, and again using the best practice which has developed from this and proven over many trials is where I tend to go as a Winemaker. I am not stuck in the mud with the attitude 'I always did it this way" That is not the kind of Winemaker I want to be. Nor am I hung up on every new trend. One thing is however, my wine is much better than it was 25 years ago. It is not because I am doing the same things I did then.

For Kendo here, he is new at it even though he was "A Natural Yeast Man" I have always liked Cultured Men better. But jumping in the pool at this time, he is exposed to all of this latest stuff. He was stressing over Yeast selection as if that was the end all and not thinking about the basic nutrient additions. Did our Guy get caught up in Yeast Selection Hype? Can't blame him. But the point is, first the Best Practices should be in place before thinking about the fine tuning of a Swiss Watch.

I thought you were poking a bit when you asked about the tannin. I was poking back about the Yeast Hulls even though I use both as a matter of course. But all of this is a lot to chew for a new guy worrying about doing it correctly. Yeast hulls, tannin, enzymes all are further refinements in the process and leaning their use and maximizing their benefits takes many batches and quite a few vintages. One step at a time. Just keeping taking steps is what I believe. After all we are Amateurs not constrained by commercial restraints and considerations. We can practice in a passionate and very unencumbered environment. It doesn't get better than that.
Malvina
 
great post, and im glad you helped me malvina, i belong to other wine making boards, an alot of wine makers cant be bothered with helping the new guy, im sure i will only get better at this, thk you for your time...kendo:b
 
I think this brings up the question as to what is the right thing to do and the answer is there are many ways to achieve results. But, a big BUT! I think for a New Winemaker the best advice to give is use "Best Practices" Some of these practices may seem as too much work or unnecessary or even a waste of time to some. But employing "Best Practices" will never steer you wrong. There are winemakers who avoid even using generally accepted practices and they say they have good results. The problem with that is you never tasted their wine and you never hear when their disregard of applying a Best Practice leads to an undesirable effect or end result.

With regards to the nutrient issue. I think the most improvement in nutrient management was the ability to have information regarding the YAN content. This allow us to use less DAP or DAP containing products and we do it without fear of stinky or stuck ferments. Since in the past, our older Best Practice worked well as we basically ball parked the numbers and the additions. Like we did here in Kendo's batch. I think the issue of using less inorganic nitrogen has driven the entire affair. It is over blown? Sometimes I think it might be a bit much. Many Commercial Winemakers still continue to dump in the DAP and let it fly. And let's face it if you want a heat spike DAP is the answer.

New Science, Marketing of new products, and again using the best practice which has developed from this and proven over many trials is where I tend to go as a Winemaker. I am not stuck in the mud with the attitude 'I always did it this way" That is not the kind of Winemaker I want to be. Nor am I hung up on every new trend. One thing is however, my wine is much better than it was 25 years ago. It is not because I am doing the same things I did then.

For Kendo here, he is new at it even though he was "A Natural Yeast Man" I have always liked Cultured Men better. But jumping in the pool at this time, he is exposed to all of this latest stuff. He was stressing over Yeast selection as if that was the end all and not thinking about the basic nutrient additions. Did our Guy get caught up in Yeast Selection Hype? Can't blame him. But the point is, first the Best Practices should be in place before thinking about the fine tuning of a Swiss Watch.

I thought you were poking a bit when you asked about the tannin. I was poking back about the Yeast Hulls even though I use both as a matter of course. But all of this is a lot to chew for a new guy worrying about doing it correctly. Yeast hulls, tannin, enzymes all are further refinements in the process and leaning their use and maximizing their benefits takes many batches and quite a few vintages. One step at a time. Just keeping taking steps is what I believe. After all we are Amateurs not constrained by commercial restraints and considerations. We can practice in a passionate and very unencumbered environment. It doesn't get better than that.
Malvina
Hey MS,I know your were poking back as a cultured man I can handle it.:D
 
Quality Yeast? Please explain. And I would ask the question. If you were teaching someone to make wine would you teach them your method or the one that is accepted generally by commercial winemakers and recommended by yeast manufacturers?
Malvina

By quality yeast, I would go with yeast that is well within the expiration period and also one that I KNOW was storred correctly by the person I purchased it from.

If I were teaching a home wine maker, I would teach good home wine making techniques. As I have said, as long as the yeast is of good quality, and the must is within the proper fermentation temperature, I still say that making a starter is not absolutely required. I have been direct "innoc" with dry yeast for 22 years and have not had a single batch that has not kicked off.

Contrary to the "Use a starter" school, there is another that theorises that the starter will force the yeast to have to make two major adjustments to its environment (once from dry to starter-hydration, and another from starter to must). There are those that do believe (and I am talking comercial wineries) that the direct approach is the best.
 
there is another that theorises that the starter will force the yeast to have to make two major adjustments to its environment (once from dry to starter-hydration, and another from starter to must).
Can you cite a source for any of this theory? It is the first time I am hearing about it. Forcing two times? You are building yeast cells and multiplying the Colony in a more positive and friendly environment hardly forcing anything.
Malvina
 
Can you cite a source for any of this theory? It is the first time I am hearing about it. Forcing two times? You are building yeast cells and multiplying the Colony in a more positive and friendly environment hardly forcing anything.
Malvina

You can go ahead and research it for yourself on the internet. You will find that many times a yeast starter is not "absolutly required".
 
You can go ahead and research it for yourself on the internet. You will find that many times a yeast starter is not "absolutly required".
You know John it was you that presented what you called an alternative theory on the possible ills of making a yeast starter and how it somehow forces the yeast to adapt first to rehydration and then another adjustment from Starter to Must. Of course any rational thinking person can see the folly of such a proposal. But as I said it was you that claim it as an alternative theory. All I asked was some information on your theory. Frankly John I think you made the entire thing up to justify your less than Best Practice in making wine. If you want to make wine that way that is fine but making up theories is a silly way to convince others it is a Best Practice.
Malvina
 
This is my first time using a yeast starter. I do not have goferm protect. I have yeast Nutrient and Ghostex. Can I add these to the starter? Or is it better to add the yeast nutrient directly to the must?
 

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