Neutral 23L barrel

[DrJayman]

Couple thoughts....

Robie- As for "A", I was actually looking for what most found to be that point where the barrell was neutral and no longer imparting oak. The earlier posts at least to me didn't clarify whether the 3-4 months was microoxidation time or that "neutral point." Mike, cleared that up. But thanks to all....

My first barrel has about 5 months of oak/wine contact on it, and there is a second on the way. Of course, batch to batch, the decrease in oak is immediately noticeable, so was curious how others were finding this progression.

As for topping up, here is a little tip I use with pretty good results. I got tired (the expense) of having a big portion of a bottle left over after topping, (even though it was nice to drink it.) I top up pretty much each week+, so this was getting cost-ineffective. I had some of those little screw top empty wine bottles that come in the cardboard 4-pack carrier and put them to use. I got a small funnel that wound fit into the neck of those bottles, and after topping from the big commerical bottle to the barrel I would sprinkle a "dust" of kmeta into those litte bottles, fill with wine to the top, replace the screw tops..........and then use those to top up in the coming weeks. With the exception of anything left over to drink any excess after topping with the mini bottles tasting a little like kmeta (due to earlier larger does of kmeta), it has worked very well with good results.

 

[tonyt]

+1 to what everyone said. I have one Vadia 23ltr. Its 30 months old in constant use. As of today its on kit 13. They now all stay 12 weeks. It adds little to no oak now.

 

[sdb8440]

Hi all,
Unless I missed it, how long does it seem to take for the barrel to become neutral? I just started my first barrel fermentation, a CC chardonay, of which I will do a second as well.

Thanks

 

[ibglowin]

Pretty darn neutral at the 2 year mark (continuously filled with different wines). It now time to hit it with some french oak cubes and or american oak. Can't wait to taste/smell the wines as they come out with a different bouquet/nose from the oak.

 

[sdb8440]

Thanks Mike

Scott

 

[tonyt]

Yep Mike's right. Two year mark found mine quite neutral. I have been adding my oak while in carboy rather than in the barrel. Not sure why I havent added any oak in barrel but I havent.

 

[XPLSV]

This has been an informative discussion. I've been homebrewing for awhile and my wife wanted to move into winemaking, which occurred this past fall. At present, she has a chardonnay (grapes) in a secondary glass carboy, a second run of the chardonnay in the secondary glass carboy (grapes plus kit combo), a straight kit of sauvignon with oak additions in the primary, and a batch of cabernet sauvignon (grapes) that is about to go into the glass carboy (just pressed this past weekend). I ordered her a 23L Vadai barrel as a surprise...it should be arriving this week. I realized up front that the oaking effect would be strong and the cabernet sauvignon could not remain in there too long, else it would be over-oaked. After reading this discussion and reflecting on the comments on the benefits of the micro-oxidation that is obtained from an oak neutral barrel, the advice to keep the barrel full (as opposed to trying to preserve it between batches), and the warning of not getting a kit wine into a barrel after exposure to MLT...I'm looking for suggestions on what might be a good path forward for use of this barrel and how to most effectively use it for her first batch of red grapes, which was my initial intent upon purchase. It could be that this barrel won't be in its prime for this season's batch of grapes and I might need to time it for next year. Perhaps we should get a red kit (or two) and run it through the barrel and keep the cabernet sauvignon in the glass carboy for an extended period and move it into the barrel several months down the road? I'm not sure whether we are that interested in fermenting in the barrel or just sticking with the aging/oaking, which was my primary interest when I placed the order. I think she is going to really like the barrel when the box arrives later this week and I'm sure we will enter into discussions on getting more. Would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions.

 

[ibglowin]

You could put both in the barrel. I would try and put as many kits in first with no MLF if you can instead of fresh grapes that have gone through MLF. If you put a kit in after having a wine that has undergone MLF into it you will need to keep the SO2 levels up (and they will drop like a rock in that barrel) as well as use Lysozyme to keep MLF at bay. I have a kit that I got last Spring (a very good LR Red Mountain Trio) that I am going to give this experiment a go at as all of my (3) barrels have had MLB in them now so no real choice and glass only is NOT a choice as well.

Guess I will see but it won't be until this Winter/Spring that I put the kit into one of my barrels.

 

[BeerAlchemist]

You could put both in the barrel. I would try and put as many kits in first with no MLF if you can instead of fresh grapes that have gone through MLF. If you put a kit in after having a wine that has undergone MLF into it you will need to keep the SO2 levels up (and they will drop like a rock in that barrel) as well as use Lysozyme to keep MLF at bay. I have a kit that I got last Spring (a very good LR Red Mountain Trio) that I am going to give this experiment a go at as all of my (3) barrels have had MLB in them now so no real choice and glass only is NOT a choice as well.

Guess I will see but it won't be until this Winter/Spring that I put the kit into one of my barrels.

Since you bring up the kit/MLF/barrel issue...what are your thoughts on relying on a barrel to hold MLF bacteria and using that for MLF so you don't have to buy a new culture every wine, just rack into an inoculated barrel and let things happen?

 

[ibglowin]

They say it works. Have not tried it myself. I have 3 Vadai's that have had wines that went through MLF in the carboy and then transferred into the barrel. If you rely on the barrel for MLF you would have to check for completion with a test as you would never see the tiny bubbles in a barrel.

Since my winery is now cooling off for the Fall/Winter period and wine temps are falling (now down to 63 this AM) I am going to add MLB to the wines from this year that are in Carboys now. I bought enough Heating Pads from Amazon ($13 each) so that I can set a carboy on a heating pad and warm it up to ~70 and get the MLF over with in ~3-4 weeks max vs last years that took almost 3 months to finish out at ~63 degrees. Then transfer one by one into barrels for oaking and concentration.

 

[BeerAlchemist]

They say it works. Have not tried it myself. I have 3 Vadai's that have had wines that went through MLF in the carboy and then transferred into the barrel. If you rely on the barrel for MLF you would have to check for completion with a test as you would never see the tiny bubbles in a barrel.

Since my winery is now cooling off for the Fall/Winter period and wine temps are falling (now down to 63 this AM) I am going to add MLB to the wines from this year that are in Carboys now. I bought enough Heating Pads from Amazon ($13 each) so that I can set a carboy on a heating pad and warm it up to ~70 and get the MLF over with in ~3-4 weeks max vs last years that took almost 3 months to finish out at ~63 degrees. Then transfer one by one into barrels for oaking and concentration.

Alright, gonna have to experiment some day when I get to that point, right now I'm holding off on pulling the trigger on my first Vadai until I get a solution for temp/humidity control built. But, even then it will be only kit wines for a while. You did make sure to get the cheap, "burn your house down" heating pads without that annoying auto shut off feature right?

 

[ibglowin]

Yep, they have been on since Saturday. No shut off, 3 heat settings, 9ft cords. Lowest setting is perfect. Brew Belts are are ~$27 each. I have used both brew belts and heating pads. Both work well if you treat them wisely and with respect.

I started out with kits for 2 years then moved on to fresh grapes myself. Kits taught me a lot about the process and allowed me to experiment. Kits are easier for sure.

I am looking at getting my 4th Vadai. Looking at the 40L this time. Can put (2) 6 gallon carboys into it (almost) for only ~$20 more. Hard to beat.

 

[BeerAlchemist]

Yep, they have been on since Saturday. No shut off, 3 heat settings, 9ft cords. Lowest setting is perfect. Brew Belts are are ~$27 each. I have used both brew belts and heating pads. Both work well if you treat them wisely and with respect.

I started out with kits for 2 years then moved on to fresh grapes myself. Kits taught me a lot about the process and allowed me to experiment. Kits are easier for sure.

I am looking at getting my 4th Vadai. Looking at the 40L this time. Can put (2) 6 gallon carboys into it (almost) for only ~$20 more. Hard to beat.

I cross my fingers and hope the GFI does its job and if that doesn't the panel backs me up if things go really bad...but, I have mine setup to a Ranco controller so I figure it doesn't stay on too long. However, I am working on a significant re-engineering of my setup that will use something other than heating pads so I don't have as much worry in the back of my head when I leave the house for work.

That 40L is tempting, but not in the cards yet. I'm looking at planting 25-30 pinot noir vines from cuttings, so when they start producing that bigger barrrel may be in my future as well.

 

[ibglowin]

Yea the 40L is something you grow into. You either have to do double batches of kits or venture out into fresh grapes. I am a little worried about keeping it full the first year but I have last years crush that I can keep the 23L going with for another 6mo or so and then its all down hill after that.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

Does anyone know where I can fin 23L American Oak Barrels at a good price? I found 20L at: http://www.barrelsonline.com/ for only $95 but they don't seem to offer 23L's and I have not been able to find them for less than $200. I am not a big fan of Hungarian Oak.

 

[richmke]

20 Liters is roughly 5.25 gallons. When making a 6 gallon batch, that gives you 3 liters to top off with. Given how much evaporates (750 ml per month?), I think that is a good thing.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

I normally have 12 to 30 gallons of each wine. I figured it would work out better with 6 gallon barrels to keep a rotation going through them.

I am also curious about SO2 requirements when using a barrel. I usually just add 1/8th tsp of meta per carbouy with each racking after malo is done. Is it different when using a barrel?

I have a bunch of last years wine that has not been oaked (been busy) but has been racked and meta'd a few times. I figured I would start with those and then move to this years stuff until I have it all oaked. That sound about right?

 

[ibglowin]

Ha ha ha. A small barrel will take your SO2 levels to zero in about 3 months time. You need to get an SO2 tester. Vinmetrica or A/O Rig of sorts.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

Ph / ta / so2

Ok, I have 2 brand new barrels prepped and ready for wine (one Vadai & one Am Oak). I also bought a Vinmetrica SC-300. I just tested my PH and TA of my Cynthiana (Norton) that has gone through MLF. PH is 3.68 and TA is 7.9 (.79%).

I have been making wine for years but always relied on my taste alone for making any additions. This wine tastes good to me. Can anyone tell me what these numbers mean? Are they ok? Do I need to make any acid adjustments? What should I shoot for my Free SO2 before going into the barrel?

 

[ibglowin]

Use this chart: