Is perfectly 'clear' wine impossible?

[Gekko4321]

I have been making wine now for a few years and I cannot seem to achieve a 'clear' glass of wine in this hobby. I have used a variety of kits and brands and techniques and everytime I think I achieved it, time changes everything. Recently I made a RJ Spagnols EP Cab kit. I bulk aged it for 6 months. I then cold stabilized it for another month. I added the packet that keeps wine diamonds away for a year (even though I CS'ed). I filtered it not just once, but twice. The end result in the bottle was clear. But 3 months later there is minut traces of 'stuff' floating around within the wine. Maybe not noticable for many but visible if looking for it. I also did a white recently that I did all the above to and noted the same and then refiltered it all again and after 3 months it too repeated. It tastes fine BTW. I may be too picky but I was sold on this hobby that I could hand a bottle as a gift to a friend and have it look and feel and taste like a wine off the store shelf. Im missing the 'look' part of that and was wondering if it is inevitable that these wine will drop sediment in time or if I am missing something else. I would be interested in hearing from people who are rather picky about appearance or experienced enough to provide me some insight. Thank you!

 

[Deezil]

It might be in your degassing procedures, hard to be completely positive

You mention that the particles are "floating around" & it would take CO2 to keep things suspended otherwise you'd find it all on the bottom of the carboy

I use a vacuum pump to degas & i've had wines that cleared 2 days after finishing fermenting - my pear wine being the latest example... But i've also had wines that took over 12 months to clear, even when degassed - like my gold raspberry

Could be a degassing thing.. But its most definitely a patience thing...

The kits should come out clear, with enough patience - even if they have to finish degassing on their own.

 

[Gekko4321]

I should have been more clear but they are floating probably because I am lifting the bottle to see. Otherwise I am sure they are at rest. I degas using both vacuum pump and stirring with drill. No bubbles within. Regardless, after degassing, they bulk age for 6 months. Should be clear by then and is. And again it is clear in bottle. In time is when it changes. What causes the change?

 

[TonyP]

There's sort of three questions embedded in what you ask and I'll try to offer my perspective on all. If you're asking about "clear" wine as in wine terminology, the answer is yes. Although I've never won a well known amateur wine competition, many wine makers do and those competitions judge clarity, as well as other factors. So, yes, it's possible. Is it easy, yes, within limits. With patience, good racking techniques, and filtering equipment, excellent results can be achieved.

If you're asking about diamonds, it doesn't sound like that's your problem.

Concerning your particular issues, I have a few thoughts. First, make certain everything is clean before you use it. Second, I don't believe filtering is designed to correct cloudy or unclear wine. Make certain the wine is clear before you filter it. In other words, if the sediment is continuing to increase wait.

If all else fails, use colored bottles

Tony P.

 

[robie]

Once rally clear, I can't imagine why your wine would not stay clear, unless it has something to do with temperature changes, but that's one reason why you cold stabilize.

Especially if you are filtering the wine!!! If the wine is not clear, filtering will just stop up the filters very quickly.

Concerning whites, my two carboys of two different sources of chardonnay are 8 to 12 months old and clear as can be. I see no reason why that should change once bottled.

Again, it could be a change in temperature is causing dropping tartaric crystals to drop. I guess it could be haze forming from temperature change, also.

 

[Gekko4321]

I once thought it was my lower end filter (gravity based) being flawed, but it does enter bottle clear. It is not wine diamonds. My equipment is insanely clean as I try to be a perfectionist. Wine was clear as a bell in carboy and in bottles. Someone once said to me that all wines continue fallout no matter what over time. If true, I am surprised it was so soon. Those of you with 'clear' wines, have you ever held up to a light and really looked at it. Like I said, you would think mine was clear until you looked closely. I live in Southern California and my house temp is around 68-70 much of the day.

 

[Deezil]

My first batch, peach wine.. I bulk aged it for 18 months.. Didnt use any clarifers nor did i filter it (should have) but once i bottled it, each bottle had enough sediment to barely cover the cork (i stored the bottles upside down)

Since then, it hasnt dropped anymore.. I'm pretty sure that was the end-of-the-end but until i agitated the wine into the bottle, it didnt lose the last few flakes...

Looked clear for 6 months in the carboy, prior to bottling. I was a bit shocked... They dont continue to fallout "forever" but they'll do it past the point where you thought they'd be done

Thats what we get for thinkin

 

[TonyP]

I agree with the comment you heard that wines continue to generate sediment over time - in my experience, particularly reds. In fact, many consider sediment (as with diamonds) to be a good thing. After all, aging is the result of chemical reactions and a by-product of that process can be sediment from tartaric crystals, tannins and other compounds. This is a large part of the basis for decanting.

I've made RJS red kits, but never the EP Cab., so perhaps someone with experience will comment on this. The difficulty I have is with the timing. The original posting mentioned, "3 months later there is minut traces of 'stuff' floating around within the wine". To me that's just too early for the wine to have noticeable sediment.

Tony P.

 

[Gekko4321]

I have had the RJS EP Sauvignon Blanc and EP Cabernet Sauvignon and the Cellar Craft Showcase Zinfandel all do this. I bought the higher end juices too to make sure things like this did not happen. I will enjoy drinking all of this for sure, but the idea of handing a bottle to someone as a source of pride is pretty much gone. Most people are not used to seeing 'unclear' wine in the U.S., so when you tell someone an 'amateur' (me) made it and it is not perfectly clear, I suspect people will be a bit uneasy with this. Just my thoughts.

 

[Deezil]

Another thing worth understanding...

These higher end kits have a higher degree of TDS (total dissolved solids) so theres going to be more sediment that will drop out over a longer period compared to kits containing more concentrates/lower end...

the high TDS is also one of the reasons these kits take longer to age (+/- 2yrs)..

I wouldnt let it sap your source of pride, instead i'd try to find some more patience, or maybe even forgetfulness - let 'er sit & expect some more fluffy sediment

With all the wines i've made (granted i dont use much for clarifiers, and not many of them have been kits) the last of the sediment is always really fluffy, and very easy to disturb... I usually stop siphoning before reaching/disturbing the sediment & will put sediment+all into a quart jar for additional settling..

In the end, i still lose a little wine but i isolate the sediment into quarts whenever i can

 

[Gekko4321]

Thanks Manley. My primary issue with your suggestion is I have already bottled, sealed, and labeled these wines. I actually pulled the corks on 'em all after 9 months to refilter when I first saw the issue arise. I thought my filter failed me. Risky but I SO2'ed and did not seem to hurt the wine. And here it is all over again. Working around the labels was treacherous as many got stained on the rebottle. I tried to fix it with much, much effort but to no avail. In the future I suppose I need to bulk age for 2 years but I am not convinced it would not still happen again. Tougher hobby than I expected. Beer was so much easier!

 

[Deezil]

Well...

How old are they / When did you start the ferment?

How long have they been in bottles?

Just wondering if theres enough time still to take it all out and bulk age it for a significant amount of time; if its worth the hassle

Wine just takes more time than beer, all the way around.. Not really any harder, i dont think

 

[TonyP]

I have had the RJS EP Sauvignon Blanc and EP Cabernet Sauvignon and the Cellar Craft Showcase Zinfandel all do this. I bought the higher end juices too to make sure things like this did not happen. I will enjoy drinking all of this for sure, but the idea of handing a bottle to someone as a source of pride is pretty much gone. Most people are not used to seeing 'unclear' wine in the U.S., so when you tell someone an 'amateur' (me) made it and it is not perfectly clear, I suspect people will be a bit uneasy with this. Just my thoughts.

I feel your pain and agree with everything you say. I'm proud of the wine I make and enjoy people's reactions to the wine I give away.

I have one last thought I'm hoping you'll consider and maybe it will help you solve your problem. Do you think the wine would be clear after 9 months in the carboy instead of 6 in the carboy and 3 in the bottle? For wine to have even minute stuff a few months after bottling, there's only two possibilities:

1. The wine wasn't clear when you bottled it or
2. The wine was clear but some foreign stuff found it's way into the wine.

If you're satisfied the wine was clear in the carboy and has been properly degassed, your equipment and bottles are clean, and you racked properly, the only possibility I can see is the filtering process.

Tony P.

 

[Gekko4321]

Hi Tony and Deezil. Thanks for the replies. I bulked the SB, Cab, and Zin for 6 months each. I had one cab I bottled right away without bulking. Prior to that I followed manufacturer instructions and if given the choice took the longer route in steps. When I degassed, I did it longer than I should and I used 2 methods-vacuum and drill stir. And that was prior to bulking. I CS'ed all for 1 month. Now I am 13 months removed from beginning on SB, 15 months on cab, and 11 months on Zin. Diff is bottle time really. I already pulled corks and refiltered most. My suspicions led me to 3 possible things. #1, Cold stabilization. I only could achieve 33-35 degrees for the month. I wondered if that was low enough. I still put in the packet to suspend crystal formation in each batch. #2, I wondered if my filter worked. It is gravity fed Vinbrite. The pad would be stained but I never noticed any real observable sediment in pad. Pads not torn once I learned that issue. I wondered if the stuff in wine was filter fibers. But, again, in bottle and week or two after, before putting away, there was no sediment or residue in wine. #3, bad corks. I additionally had 'floaties' on top of wine that I learned came off the corks. So when I refiltered, I used 4 brands of corks to see if that was the issue. The floatie part seemed to be attributed to certain corks. Let me know if this info helps.

 

[Gekko4321]

Just an update to this post I started. I rebottled and refiltered and added another 1/4 teaspoon of K meta. I choose that amount just due to readings I got from Accuvin strip. First 2-3 weeks, I held various bottles up and closely inspected and all was clear. Around one month mark, the white specks were back. I thought they might be corks at one point but I had used 4 different ones this time and still same problem. I thought maybe putting foil capsules on with heat gun might have done it, so I did not add them this time. Still the white specks. Wine tasted fine and still does, but the presentation is bothersome to me. Might not bother us hobbyists but I think it would others. My only theory left is it is an inescapable aging thing.

 

[Putterrr]

I don't filter. I have read on here that those that do and use a better filtering setup than the Vinbrite, also use filter pads that are in the 1 micro range and even smaller. I cant see how your filter can come close to this with simple pads as compared to the whole house filter cartrige. Maybe you could try the filter setup mentioned here

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/review-whole-house-wine-filtering-36589/

 

[cpfan]

Just an update to this post I started. I rebottled and refiltered and added another 1/4 teaspoon of K meta. I choose that amount just due to readings I got from Accuvin strip. First 2-3 weeks, I held various bottles up and closely inspected and all was clear. Around one month mark, the white specks were back. I thought they might be corks at one point but I had used 4 different ones this time and still same problem. I thought maybe putting foil capsules on with heat gun might have done it, so I did not add them this time. Still the white specks. Wine tasted fine and still does, but the presentation is bothersome to me. Might not bother us hobbyists but I think it would others. My only theory left is it is an inescapable aging thing.

I haven't made many EP kits, but my understanding is that even with cold stabilization, wine diamonds will form.

What are these white specks like?

Steve

 

[John Prince]

I ferment to dry, then rack. Then in 4 months I rack again, then I rack again in 4 months. I do cold stabilizing and filter my wine. Kits clear okay. Fruit wines get some protein haze if you squeeze the fruit too hard.

 

[Gekko4321]

If my filter was not good enough then why is the wine clear for 3 weeks before specks appear? Specks, fibers, it just floats around inside. I also bulked aged and racked a few times. They do not appear to be wine diamonds. Ive seen those in my reds and they are not the same.

 

[btom2004]

Are you cleaning or running water/sulfites through your filters before filtering wine?

I've read that those floating particles or specks, could actually be filter particles coming off of your filter and into your wine when you run wine through it.

Try running a few gallons of water first before you filter the wine. This also helps the filter by presoaking it and it catches the wine particles better.

@Check your filters for small tears. This may be the cause as well. The filter may be letting particles through and not filtering well or at all.

@Some filters are not reusable. Get some new ones.