Headspace monitor

[safe bomb]

Hi All,

We are thinking of making bungs that will glow (red) if the headspace in the barrel grows to more than a specified amount.
Will this be of interest to you?
Will it save time by addressing only barrels that need topping up, rather than blindly topping up every barrel? and that too sometimes too early or too late.

Appreciate quick feedback.

 

[winemaker81]

Depending on price, that is an interesting idea.

I tend to top every 4 weeks or so, although if I'm paying attention I can see how deeply the bung is embedded in the barrel as a guide. If I can figure how the depth that will require exactly 750 ml wine, it will save me hassle.

 

[safe bomb]

Thanks for your feedback.

Would it be useful for only people with few barrels or someone managing a large cellar? (100s/1000s)

With large number of barrels, will they be willing to change their current process of filling all barrels in one go? rather than picking and choosing the ones the smart-bung highlights?
My assumption is that, if they only address the barrels that need topup, using our smart-bung, over the year, they might save atleast 1 to 2 topups per barrel.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm an amateur with two 54 liter barrels, so take that into account when considering my opinions.

At the current time I made 8 lug batches for each barrel. Excess is stored in whatever containers are required for the volume. I top the barrels roughly every 4 weeks. I draw a small tasting sample (quality control, ya know!), add K-meta if it's time, and top with a 750 ml bottle. If there is some leftover, it's probably little enough that I can't easily store, so I drink it. Hopefully I'm not short, as then I have to open another bottle and figure out who to do with the remainder.

My issue is materials management. Knowing when exactly one 750 bottle is needed conserves my limited resources.

Now I visualize myself as a commercial winemaker with 50 barrels of a given varietal. Based upon my knowledge of winemaking and my experiences in other lines of business:

I'm not concerned with saving a topping or two in a year, my concern is workflow and time management. Every morning I assess how many barrels need topping -- this should take 5 minutes. Pour a cup of coffee is task #1 each morning, assess barrels is #2.

When X barrels (whatever value makes sense for X) turn red, I top those barrels. Since I know how much each barrel is down, this task is more efficient in terms of my time. It also spreads the work out, so that I'm doing X barrels in a day and I'm not having to touch them all. The first topup will be hectic, but over time the evaporation rates of each are different enough that it will divide up the work. This is far more efficient than opening all 50 barrels at once and guessing how much wine is needed to top them.

Multiply that by 10 varietals, and your product sounds good.

...

As a home winemaker, cost is a critical. If each device is $20 USD, I'd buy two. If the price is $200 each, I'm not a customer.

As a professional, I'd have to balance the per unit cost vs saved hours. If it was a good trade-off, I'd make a limited test, and if it proved successful, then expand.

I assume these will be battery powered -- how long will a charge last?

 

[Jovimaple]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[safe bomb]

@winemaker81 Thanks for your descriptive feedback. Defo gives me confidence for the need.
I will keep you posted on the cost/battery life. We are still at the concept phase.
Wanted to make sure there is an actual need for such a product.

I am quite new to the wine industry. So some basic questions to understand this better.
1) What could cause to two varietal to evaporate at different rates? different alcohol to water ratio?
2) If the barrels are brand new (just as an example), what could cause two barrels with same varietal to evaporate at different rates?
3) An imaginative example, if it takes 1 minute to top up a barrel (get to it, climb ladders, clean up before, top up, clean up after).
For someone with 4000 barrels, do they really spend (4000 * 1 min) = nearly 10 working days to top up all barrels every month?
Is this the scale of operation involved?

 

[safe bomb]

Welcome to WMT!

Thanks

 

[winemaker81]

I'm happy to be of assistance.

1) What could cause to two varietal to evaporate at different rates? different alcohol to water ratio?

I'm not an expert on the subject, but the environment (temperature, humidity) and the wood itself make a difference. Every barrel is unique -- mine evaporate at slightly different rates -- when both are full, one will need a couple ounces more of wine.

I doubt that varietal makes much (if any) difference. The ABV might -- I don't know.

3) An imaginative example,

Topping a barrel in 1 minute is unrealistic. Sometimes it takes me a minute to get the bung out, as a vacuum forms. A more realistic answer for your scenario is for like 30 to 50 working days.

Wineries that big have at least dozens of employees. It's a lot of labor.

If you haven't made wine, buy a hardware setup and a wine ingredient kit. Your view of the industry will change.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I work at a winery as well as making wine at home. (The winery is quite small, I would say 100-150 barrels maximum, often less depending on how big the last vintage was.)

2) If the barrels are brand new (just as an example), what could cause two barrels with same varietal to evaporate at different rates?

You'll get different rates of evaporation depending on the barrel's position in a stack. The top is generally warmer than the bottom, so even in a temperature controlled environment the barrels at the top of a stack will lose more than those at the bottom.

3) An imaginative example, if it takes 1 minute to top up a barrel (get to it, climb ladders, clean up before, top up, clean up after).
For someone with 4000 barrels, do they really spend (4000 * 1 min) = nearly 10 working days to top up all barrels every month?
Is this the scale of operation involved?

We use a keg of wine connected to a topping 'wand' (like this), and we do top up every month or so. I think ~1/3 gal is a reasonable average for how much wine we add per barrel per month. Assuming topping wine is in kegs and ready to go, I'm pretty sure I (alone) could do all of our cellar in a day, maybe even half a day. In fact I was topping barrels yesterday, and it was probably only a couple of hrs at most including sanitizing equipment before and after (though the cellar is relatively empty right now, I would say 30-40 barrels).

For me, the main value proposition for your idea would be to proactively identify a problem, eg leaky barrel. I'm not so concerned if there is some variability between barrels since they will all be topped every month in any case. But it might be hard to notice a leaky barrel until a significant amount of wine has been lost, not to mention that the increased headspace might compromise the quality of the remaining wine.

 

[safe bomb]

I'm happy to be of assistance.


I'm not an expert on the subject, but the environment (temperature, humidity) and the wood itself make a difference. Every barrel is unique -- mine evaporate at slightly different rates -- when both are full, one will need a couple ounces more of wine.

I doubt that varietal makes much (if any) difference. The ABV might -- I don't know.


Topping a barrel in 1 minute is unrealistic. Sometimes it takes me a minute to get the bung out, as a vacuum forms. A more realistic answer for your scenario is for like 30 to 50 working days.

Wineries that big have at least dozens of employees. It's a lot of labor.

If you haven't made wine, buy a hardware setup and a wine ingredient kit. Your view of the industry will change.

It does look like a lot of labor for a large winery.

Maybe I will

 

[safe bomb]

I work at a winery as well as making wine at home. (The winery is quite small, I would say 100-150 barrels maximum, often less depending on how big the last vintage was.)


You'll get different rates of evaporation depending on the barrel's position in a stack. The top is generally warmer than the bottom, so even in a temperature controlled environment the barrels at the top of a stack will lose more than those at the bottom.


We use a keg of wine connected to a topping 'wand' (like this), and we do top up every month or so. I think ~1/3 gal is a reasonable average for how much wine we add per barrel per month. Assuming topping wine is in kegs and ready to go, I'm pretty sure I (alone) could do all of our cellar in a day, maybe even half a day. In fact I was topping barrels yesterday, and it was probably only a couple of hrs at most including sanitizing equipment before and after (though the cellar is relatively empty right now, I would say 30-40 barrels).

For me, the main value proposition for your idea would be to proactively identify a problem, eg leaky barrel. I'm not so concerned if there is some variability between barrels since they will all be topped every month in any case. But it might be hard to notice a leaky barrel until a significant amount of wine has been lost, not to mention that the increased headspace might compromise the quality of the remaining wine.

40 barrels in 2 hours, is still 3 mins per barrel? are they all on the floor?
Thats gonna only make the case worse for a 4000 barrel winery? (calculates to around 40 man days)

Regarding leak, is it common on new barrels or used?
And what would be the % of barrels that you would have found to be leaking?
I guess currently there are guys walking around doing visual checks of leak on the floor?

 

[winemaker81]

A critical point is barrel size. My barrels are 54 liter / 14.25 US gallons, while commercial wineries typically use ~60 gallon / 220+ liter barrels. The internal surface area to volume ratios are wildly different, and that make a lot of difference.

I suggest that you do a lot more research on barrels and barrel management practices before going past the design stage. Visit local wineries and talk to the winemaker and barrel managers.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

40 barrels in 2 hours, is still 3 mins per barrel? are they all on the floor?

The actual process of putting wine into barrel is 30 sec or less unless it's unusually empty, maybe a few seconds more to remove and replace the bung. I gave a very rough guess which includes time taken to sanitize equipment, move gear around, change kegs for different wines and climb barrels (up a ladder or free climbing, well, monkey style ). Our stacks are usually 3 high; of course, all on the floor would be faster.

Regarding leak, is it common on new barrels or used?
And what would be the % of barrels that you would have found to be leaking?
I guess currently there are guys walking around doing visual checks of leak on the floor?

Leaks are fairly unusual and most likely you'll find out when you first fill the barrel. A serious leak would be obvious but it's not the kind of thing you check for every day, particularly when there's other work going on.

A couple more thoughts:

Bungs need to be sanitized before being put into service, so you'd need your device to be waterproof

Is it battery powered? I can imagine that being an issue. There are enough tasks to take care of on a regular basis aside from 'bung battery maintenance'. How would you differentiate between a well-topped barrel vs a short barrel with a dead battery in the headspace monitor?

For me, a more useful device would be an 'electronic sniffer' that monitors for volatile problem compounds in the headspace - VA, acetaldehyde etc. But I'm sure that's a whole other level of complexity...

I suggest that you do a lot more research on barrels and barrel management practices before going past the design stage. Visit local wineries and talk to the winemaker and barrel managers.

I strongly second this advice

 

[winemaker81]

@BarrelMonkey, thanks for the view into professional barrel management. My visualization didn't quite match what you do, but it's clear there's a difference in mindset between managing a handful of barrels and managing a lot.

 

[safe bomb]

Thanks @BarrelMonkey and @winemaker81 for your valuable feedback.

I live in Ireland. Not sure if there is a local winery with the scale I am looking for here
I will try reaching out to a Cellar Manager via my network elsewhere.