First Time with Grapes... Cry Baby

[ibglowin]

What the heck good does it do you to have a wine with a pH of 3.65 but it now has a TA of 12 and puckers your mouth when you try to drink it? It is for that reason that you have to look at BOTH pH and TA. You add acid until you have maxed out your TA. If your pH is 3.8 or so, thats it for now. It ain't gonna taste flabby if your TA is 8.0 and pH is still up there I can guarantee that. If your sure about your measurements (and it sounds like you have every reason to be). Once the TA is maxed out, stick a fork in it for now. Ferment it, MLF it and check the pH and TA in a few weeks/months after you have let it settle and clear. You can hit it again with another round of Tartaric and see if you can nudge it closer to a textbook value.

One things for sure, there are plenty of commercial pH 3.8 wines on the shelves that are 90pts or better and they are not flabby in any way. You will have to hit it with higher amoiunts of SO2 but that's what its for.

 

[RegionRat]

What the heck good does it do you to have a wine with a pH of 3.65 but it now has a TA of 12 and puckers your mouth when you try to drink it? It is for that reason that you have to look at BOTH pH and TA. You add acid until you have maxed out your TA. If your pH is 3.8 or so, thats it for now. It ain't gonna taste flabby if your TA is 8.0 and pH is still up there I can guarantee that. If your sure about your measurements (and it sounds like you have every reason to be). Once the TA is maxed out, stick a fork in it for now. Ferment it, MLF it and check the pH and TA in a few weeks/months after you have let it settle and clear. You can hit it again with another round of Tartaric and see if you can nudge it closer to a textbook value.

One things for sure, there are plenty of commercial pH 3.8 wines on the shelves that are 90pts or better and they are not flabby in any way. You will have to hit it with higher amoiunts of SO2 but that's what its for.

Thanks for the reply. That helps me put a little more perspective on the acid situation.

I did throw additional 28 gr of tataric this morning before I read your response. I hope I didnt mess up. I will test tonight or Sat morning when I get off work.

RR

 

[manvsvine]

You should be fine with that addition

Yes as I said adding acid to get your ph to about 3.8 when it starts above 4 is about as far as you want to go .
To take it all the way to 3.65 would push you TA too far up. 9g/l would be about as far as I'd want to go. Farther and you get to the CS game . You will be ok

It's the classic CV compromise .

Your TA will drop a little when you do mlf and your ph raise again but you should still be under 4.0 post mlf as CV grapes don't tend to have high levels of Malic.

You can always do a little post mlf tartaric addition to put you back at 3.8.

 

[RegionRat]

You should be fine with that addition

Yes as I said adding acid to get your ph to about 3.8 when it starts above 4 is about as far as you want to go .
To take it all the way to 3.65 would push you TA too far up. 9g/l would be about as far as I'd want to go. Farther and you get to the CS game . You will be ok

It's the classic CV compromise .

Your TA will drop a little when you do mlf and your ph raise again but you should still be under 4.0 post mlf as CV grapes don't tend to have high levels of Malic.

You can always do a little post mlf tartaric addition to put you back at 3.8.

I totally under stand now.

What is the 'CS game' you refer to.

I plan on doing MLF as soon as it ferments dry. I have Bacchus Malolactic Bacteria Culture, and some Opti Malo Plus. Will that do the trick?

I am sure this will make a good wine. What is fermenting tastes real good.

RR

 

[manvsvine]

Baccus is the same strain as vp31 , it's very reliable and tolerant of adverse conditions. My only caveat is that it is often sat in a local wine shop for a long time , which could impact viability . But if you ordered it online or your local supplier is diligent and has good turnover it should be fine.

I was referring to cold stabilizing , I didn't really want to go there but , often in very hot regions like Spain , Australia and the Central Valley , large amounts of tartaric are added because phs can be very high on uber ripe , irrigated , chemically fertilised bulk market grapes .

Simply put ph is a measure of the effectiveness or sharpness of the acid .
Acid is buffered in a complex solution .
Ph lets you know how buffered .

In the case of your wine , you had a good level of base acid , in many cv musts I've seen total acid levels as low as 3.9 which lines up with phs over 4.0
Very common .

So pre fermentation acid additions can be very large , ta can be brought up around 10 g/l or higher to get the ph in range .
Then post mlf the wine is cold stabilized to prevent tartaric instability later , ie in cold storage in the bottle . Because buffering is reduced post mlf , the ph doesn't come up much when cold stabilizing drops the TA .

But this seesaw technique is best avoided because it hurts overall wine quality and longevity . But if you are selling wine for 3 bucks a bottle , who cares?

As home winemakers a much more concervative approach is better , hence the 3.8 ph and try to keep TA under 9.0 recommendation.

In your case a TA of 7 and a ph over 4 means your wine has a higher level of natural acid buffering going on . So I'd stay concervative , it's a fine line between getting this right and overshooting .

 

[RegionRat]

Baccus is the same strain as vp31 , it's very reliable and tolerant of adverse conditions. My only caveat is that it is often sat in a local wine shop for a long time , which could impact viability . But if you ordered it online or your local supplier is diligent and has good turnover it should be fine.

I was referring to cold stabilizing , I didn't really want to go there but , often in very hot regions like Spain , Australia and the Central Valley , large amounts of tartaric are added because phs can be very high on uber ripe , irrigated , chemically fertilised bulk market grapes .

Simply put ph is a measure of the effectiveness or sharpness of the acid .
Acid is buffered in a complex solution .
Ph lets you know how buffered .

In the case of your wine , you had a good level of base acid , in many cv musts I've seen total acid levels as low as 3.9 which lines up with phs over 4.0
Very common .

So pre fermentation acid additions can be very large , ta can be brought up around 10 g/l or higher to get the ph in range .
Then post mlf the wine is cold stabilized to prevent tartaric instability later , ie in cold storage in the bottle . Because buffering is reduced post mlf , the ph doesn't come up much when cold stabilizing drops the TA .

But this seesaw technique is best avoided because it hurts overall wine quality and longevity . But if you are selling wine for 3 bucks a bottle , who cares?

As home winemakers a much more concervative approach is better , hence the 3.8 ph and try to keep TA under 9.0 recommendation.

In your case a TA of 7 and a ph over 4 means your wine has a higher level of natural acid buffering going on . So I'd stay concervative , it's a fine line between getting this right and overshooting .

Again thanks for the detailed respond.

I could tell by my numbers that if I was to get to that 3.x ideal ph then my ta would be in the 11 range.

If there is so much acid in this must why doesnt it have that' tang' taste when I sample the must?

The Baccus is fresh, I ordered it online when I came home with the grapes. The MLF part of my wine education came in the spring when I did three Chilean juice buckets. I am confident I can do it again.

If you are suggesting I do a cold stabilization I am putting together a chest freezer with a Johnson control unit as we speak. I have read about others on here doing cold stabilization. I didnt know when or where I was going to but I know sooner or later I will.


Anyway. It is fermenting away and has a nice cap. I have been punching the cap down twice a day. As of this morning sg was 1.085. The color really seems to be developing also.

.... But if you are selling wine for 3 bucks a bottle , who cares? ...

So the secret is out of the bag for 'Three Buck Chuck'

RR

 

[manvsvine]

I think you will be fine just proceeding as you have planned .
CS shouldn't be needed .

You may want to consider a moderate dose of a finishing tanning as it ages .
Cv grapes often need a little help there in terms of colour stability and mouthfeel .

You should produce some nice BBQ wine from this .
But , and this is not bashing , there is a reason cry baby is just about the cheapest grapes money can buy.

Better grapes from a cooler region equals less intervention and in the right hands , better wine.

 

[RegionRat]

Thanks again.

Like I said earlier I will do things different next year. There are other options for fresh grapes here in Chicago.

The place where I got these grapes is a third generation supplier. All the old timers go there to get their grapes. When I talk to them about how they make wine they dont use hydrometer, k-meta, or sorbate. Just crush and let stit for a fixed amount of time, crush put in a demijon and let it ferment. So I guess this "**** Red" as it is called is what they are used to.

I am in no way a 'wine snob' There is nothing wrong with a BBQ wine. I dont think that is bashing. It is just the way it is. At the fire house there is a saying, 'send sh*t, get sh*t.' I am going to make the best of this. I am confident this wine will be more then drinkable.

Back to my wine. I dont know what my final ph is going to be. I am thinking in the 3.7 range. That calls for upwards of 70ppm SO2 correct. And you said to add a 'moderate dose of a finishing tanning.' All I have on hand is LD Carlson Wine Tannin Is that considered a 'finishing tannin' If not I will order what you recommend.

RR

 

[Tess]

LMAO@Bartman!!! Well said!!

 

[manvsvine]

You can add that tannin durring the ferment
Check their recommended dose but I expect 1-2 grams in the primary should be about right .

 

[RegionRat]

You can add that tannin durring the ferment
Check their recommended dose but I expect 1-2 grams in the primary should be about right .

I really wasnt concerned when to add it as much as you used the term 'finishing tannin.' That was the first time I hear that term. I googled it. I am good.

sg 1.015 will be pressing tomorrow morning.

RR

 

[RegionRat]

Punching Down the Cap

I have already pressed but I wanted to put videos up in order they were shot.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6z-VopQdkQ"]Punching Cap Down[/ame]

RR

 

[GreginND]

I can smell it from here!