First Cyser Questions

[PAFruitWines]

Recipe 5/12
4 gal Mott's apple juice
5 lb clover honey caramelized in pressure cooker
5 lb brown sugar
2 tsp yeast nutrient
I tsp yeast energizer
2 tsp pectic enzyme
1 tsp tannin
1/4 tsp kmeta
5/13 pitched ec 1118 SG 1.128

I broke my hydrometer when I mixed this and couldn't check my SG until I was ready to pitch the yeast. I tested the new hydrometer in water at 1.0.
stirred twice a day. checked SG today (56 hours after pitching yeast) and got 1.09. house was 74* and must was 80*. is it possible it is fermenting that fast? first time using this yeast. lots of carbonation but not really much foam except when I stir, also the cloth on top was wet but it doesn't look like the must foamed up that high. also added 1 tsp nutrient and 1/2 tsp energizer 5/15. could these numbers be correct?

thanks, Mike

 

[BernardSmith]

Sorry PAFruitwines, You don't suggest the volume of must so it is not possible to know what figures might be reasonable. And your point about checking the gravity at 1.0 : is that the time you did the test or the reading you got measuring what - water or the must? Readings are usually to three places after the decimal point. So is the first number 1.000 or 1.100 or 1.010 or something else? Is the second figure 1.009 or 1.090 or something else?

But 1 lbs of sugar in 1 gallon will raise the gravity of that gallon by 0.040. I don't know the effect of caramelization has on honey but if I assume it has negligible effect on the yeast's ability to convert the honey to alcohol then 1 lb of honey will also raise the gravity in 1 gallon about .040. I am guessing that 1 gallon of Motts AJ will have a gravity about 1.040 also but you have only four gallons so that is 0.160 /5 (4 *040 /5) or, 0.032 and so that gives you a starting gravity of approximately 1.112 in FIVE gallons (or 5*.040/5+ 5*.040/5 + 4*.040/5). If you have six gallons then you need to calculate for the larger volume of liquid (divide by 6 rather than 5) . OK, assuming you have 5 gallons and not 5.5 or 6 gallons, could gravity drop from 1.112 (approx) to 1.090 (for example) in 3 days at a temperature of between 74 and 80 F? Yes, I think so... Others may disagree but again.. I am not sure what your readings are and so cannot say whether your readings are meaningful but I do think that hypothetically speaking a drop from 1.112 to 1.090 in 3 days at a temperature above 70 is quite within the bounds of expectations.

 

[PAFruitWines]

4.75 gal must
tested hydrometer in plain water at 1.0=1.000
SG on 5/13 1.128
SG on 5/15 1.09=1.090

 

[PAFruitWines]

Sorry PAFruitwines, You don't suggest the volume of must so it is not possible to know what figures might be reasonable. And your point about checking the gravity at 1.0 : is that the time you did the test or the reading you got measuring what - water or the must? Readings are usually to three places after the decimal point. So is the first number 1.000 or 1.100 or 1.010 or something else? Is the second figure 1.009 or 1.090 or something else?

But 1 lbs of sugar in 1 gallon will raise the gravity of that gallon by 0.040. I don't know the effect of caramelization has on honey but if I assume it has negligible effect on the yeast's ability to convert the honey to alcohol then 1 lb of honey will also raise the gravity in 1 gallon about .040. I am guessing that 1 gallon of Motts AJ will have a gravity about 1.040 also but you have only four gallons so that is 0.160 /5 (4 *040 /5) or, 0.032 and so that gives you a starting gravity of approximately 1.112 in FIVE gallons (or 5*.040/5+ 5*.040/5 + 4*.040/5). If you have six gallons then you need to calculate for the larger volume of liquid (divide by 6 rather than 5) . OK, assuming you have 5 gallons and not 5.5 or 6 gallons, could gravity drop from 1.112 (approx) to 1.090 (for example) in 3 days at a temperature of between 74 and 80 F? Yes, I think so... Others may disagree but again.. I am not sure what your readings are and so cannot say whether your readings are meaningful but I do think that hypothetically speaking a drop from 1.112 to 1.090 in 3 days at a temperature above 70 is quite within the bounds of expectations.

sorry, U lost me. after the fact I pluged the numbers into the ferm calc program using 1.050 for the AJ and it predicted SG and volume on the money. 1.128-1.090=0.038 drop in 56 hours. not sure it's possible. that is my main question.

 

[BernardSmith]

My estimate included the sugar - .040 per lb in 1 gallon. I don't think there is any significant difference in the potential alcohol if you use brown sugar or corn sugar or sugar from sugar beets. I think the difference is in my estimate of Motts juice AND in my guestimate that your volume was 5 gallons and not 4.75. (I divided the total amount of sugars I thought you had by 5 rather than by 4.75 - and my assumption of 5 gallons would mean that you diluted the sugars in a larger volume of liquid than you in fact did and my assumption would result in a lower starting gravity than would in fact be the case)
I assumed that Mott's juice would be around 1.040 per gallon but it could be higher. The juice I get from our local orchard is about 1.045. Your figures are not unexpectedly high (at least to me). Let me assume that Motts has an amount of sugars from the apple to provide you with a reading of 1.050.
So you have 4 (gallons) X .050 = .200 gravity of the sugar. But that .200 gravity is to be mixed in a volume of 4.75 gallons total so we need to divide that by the total volume of 4.75 and then to that add 5(lbs) X.040 (for the gravity of the brown sugar) which again coincidentally = .200. Divide that by the total volume of 4.75 and add 5X 040 = .200 for the addition of sugars in the honey and again divide that by 4.75 ) . This gives a total sugar content of about .600 which is dissolved within 4.75 gallons of must and that equals a starting gravity of about 1.126 BY ESTIMATION - not measurement (So, if Mott's is a hair above 1.050 per gallon then your figure of 1.128 (BY MEASUREMENT is very reasonable) - Again, I am simply using my rules of thumb about how much a lb of honey and how much a pound of sugar is likely to add to 1 gallon of water.

The difference between your measured gravities and my earlier estimate is because 1. the smaller volume you in fact had the sugars dissolved in - (so more concentrated and so a higher gravity) and 2. my lower guestimate of the gravity of Motts juice. I assumed about 1.040 but your reading of the must suggests that it could be at least 1.050.

So is it reasonable to say that a must of 1.128 could drop to 1.090 in 3 days if the temperature was above 70 F. Yes, I think so. That yeast has good nutrient in the apple, the sugar and the added nutrient, the temperature is conducive to active fermentation, there are now buffers in the must to inhibit the pH associated with the honey to drop to the floor - which would then inhibit the action of the yeast... so a drop of about .013 a day is high but not astronomically high - IMO...
But that is not to suggest that such a high speed of fermentation is desirable. I would think that you may be losing the more nuanced and flavorful volatile molecules and you may be encouraging the production of particular phenols and esters that may not be preferred. You may want to lower the temperature of the room and the bucket or carboy if that is possible.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

To answer your question, yes, EC1118 is a very strong fermenting yeast, you could easily be done in only 5 days sometimes with fruit wines. You added some sugar plus the honey so it was easy for this yeast to get going fast, plus it had the sugars from the apple juice. Good job adding the tannins, it will make this so much better. When you tested your new hydrometer, did you use distilled water, degassed, for an accurate reading. Also, do you only still have one hydrometer or did you go ahead and get 2 since they break much faster when you only have 1 and no backup. Why 4.75 gal? and not 5+, saving room for more juice? WVMJ

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Bernard, its Motts apple juice, no nuances present, those only come from real quality cider. WVMJ

My estimate included the sugar - .040 per lb in 1 gallon. I don't think there is any significant difference in the potential alcohol if you use brown sugar or corn sugar or sugar from sugar beets. I think the difference is in my estimate of Motts juice AND in my guestimate that your volume was 5 gallons and not 4.75. (I divided the total amount of sugars I thought you had by 5 rather than by 4.75 - and my assumption of 5 gallons would mean that you diluted the sugars in a larger volume of liquid than you in fact did and my assumption would result in a lower starting gravity than would in fact be the case)
I assumed that Mott's juice would be around 1.040 per gallon but it could be higher. The juice I get from our local orchard is about 1.045. Your figures are not unexpectedly high (at least to me). Let me assume that Motts has an amount of sugars from the apple to provide you with a reading of 1.050.
So you have 4 (gallons) X .050 = .200 gravity of the sugar. But that .200 gravity is to be mixed in a volume of 4.75 gallons total so we need to divide that by the total volume of 4.75 and then to that add 5(lbs) X.040 (for the gravity of the brown sugar) which again coincidentally = .200. Divide that by the total volume of 4.75 and add 5X 040 = .200 for the addition of sugars in the honey and again divide that by 4.75 ) . This gives a total sugar content of about .600 which is dissolved within 4.75 gallons of must and that equals a starting gravity of about 1.126 BY ESTIMATION - not measurement (So, if Mott's is a hair above 1.050 per gallon then your figure of 1.128 (BY MEASUREMENT is very reasonable) - Again, I am simply using my rules of thumb about how much a lb of honey and how much a pound of sugar is likely to add to 1 gallon of water.

The difference between your measured gravities and my earlier estimate is because 1. the smaller volume you in fact had the sugars dissolved in - (so more concentrated and so a higher gravity) and 2. my lower guestimate of the gravity of Motts juice. I assumed about 1.040 but your reading of the must suggests that it could be at least 1.050.

So is it reasonable to say that a must of 1.128 could drop to 1.090 in 3 days if the temperature was above 70 F. Yes, I think so. That yeast has good nutrient in the apple, the sugar and the added nutrient, the temperature is conducive to active fermentation, there are now buffers in the must to inhibit the pH associated with the honey to drop to the floor - which would then inhibit the action of the yeast... so a drop of about .013 a day is high but not astronomically high - IMO...
But that is not to suggest that such a high speed of fermentation is desirable. I would think that you may be losing the more nuanced and flavorful volatile molecules and you may be encouraging the production of particular phenols and esters that may not be preferred. You may want to lower the temperature of the room and the bucket or carboy if that is possible.

 

[PAFruitWines]

To answer your question, yes, EC1118 is a very strong fermenting yeast, you could easily be done in only 5 days sometimes with fruit wines. You added some sugar plus the honey so it was easy for this yeast to get going fast, plus it had the sugars from the apple juice. Good job adding the tannins, it will make this so much better. When you tested your new hydrometer, did you use distilled water, degassed, for an accurate reading. Also, do you only still have one hydrometer or did you go ahead and get 2 since they break much faster when you only have 1 and no backup. Why 4.75 gal? and not 5+, saving room for more juice? WVMJ

I'm new to this since Jan. Just DB and frozen concentrates using Montrachet at consistent 68*. It really surprised me with a different yeast and warm temps.
As to the 4.75 gal I forgot the volume of the sugar. I thought I would get 4.5 from the AJ and honey. 3 gal carboy, gal jug and a bottle or so to top off after clearing.
Researching meads I thought it would B hard to ferment and wouldn't go dry. If this goes dry it will B about 18% abv. If it does at this point I'm thinking stabilize in a 5 gal carboy and top with AJ to get to about 16.5 abv. Then bulk age for 3 mo
Before back sweetening.
Only got the 1 hydrometer but will Def get a second 1.