Crushing vs Pressing

[Old Philosopher]

I guess I'm just dense.
Somebody spell it out for me...anybody.
One minute we're talking about fermenting the grapes, skins and all.
Then we're talking about whole-cluster pressing. Are we just using the juice then?
Trying to follow this, I press whole clusters. I'm left with a mash of burst grapes and stems. I know I can't ferment that with the stems in, so how do I get to the grapes in the must without the stem pieces?
Or are we talking about two separate methods here?
1) Press whole clusters and only use the juice.
2) Don't press anything, just de-stem, pop the grapes ("crush") and ferment the mashed grapes in their own juice.

Hope someone can see the source of my confusion.

 

[JohnT]

Perhaps this will help.

When we say "crush" we are talking about sending the grapes through a crusher / destemmer. This machine lightly crushes the grapes and removes the stems. This must is usually fermented (skins and all) for red wines.

For white wines, you have several options..

1) run the grapes through the crusher/destemmer and ferment that.
2) run the grapes through the crusher/destemmer and then load that into your press, extracting only the juice and fermenting that.
3) skip the crusher/destemmer and simply load whole clusters into your press and extract the juice and then ferment it.


It really is a matter of personal preference.

 

[Old Philosopher]

It would seem that there are as many techniques as there are people doing it.
I've come to the conclusion that wine from grapes runs the gamete from lobbing grenades (mashed grapes, few pounds of sugar, wait until it stops bubbling) to rocket science (inert gases, SO2 levels, etc.)
I've also come to the conclusion that I am somewhere in the "Kentucky windage" category. If I don't hit the mark this year, I'll raise my sights and try again next year.

Here's my game plan:

• I've de-stemmed the 25 pounds by hand
• I'm going to 'crush' 'em (again by hand)
• Add some enzyme and SO2 to the bucket, wait 24 hours
• Press the whole mess to extract as much juice as possible
• Put everything (skins& juice) back in the primary bucket, raise the SG, and toss the yeast. Probably use EC-1118 since my temperatures fluctuate so much.
• Cross fingers

 

[JohnT]

It would seem that there are as many techniques as there are people doing it.
I've come to the conclusion that wine from grapes runs the gamete from lobbing grenades (mashed grapes, few pounds of sugar, wait until it stops bubbling) to rocket science (inert gases, SO2 levels, etc.)
I've also come to the conclusion that I am somewhere in the "Kentucky windage" category. If I don't hit the mark this year, I'll raise my sights and try again next year.

Here's my game plan:


1) I've de-stemmed the 25 pounds by hand
2) I'm going to 'crush' 'em (again by hand)
3) Add some enzyme and SO2 to the bucket, wait 24 hours
4) Press the whole mess to extract as much juice as possible
5) Put everything (skins& juice) back in the primary bucket, raise the SG, and toss the yeast. Probably use EC-1118 since my temperatures fluctuate so much.
6) Cross fingers

on point 5 (above) why would you put the skins back into the primary bucket? I would either toss the skins or ferment without pressing them.

 

[Turock]

Don't add pectic enzyme and SO2 together as the SO2 will inactivate the enzyme. Pitch the SO2 first and wait at least 12 hrs. Then pitch the enzyme and wait another 12 hrs. Then set brix, take PH readings and adjust as needed, THEN pitch the yeast.

 

[Boatboy24]

If you want to ferment on the skins, there is no need to press until you are ready to go to secondary.

 

[Old Philosopher]

on point 5 (above) why would you put the skins back into the primary bucket? I would either toss the skins or ferment without pressing them.

If you want to ferment on the skins, there is no need to press until you are ready to go to secondary.

Okay. That sounded dumb, even to me.
Since these are 'white' grapes, is there even a purpose in pressing after fermentation?

And speaking of that... The only other time I did these grapes, I crushed and hung them like I was making jelly, and fermented just the juice.
Right now I have about 3 gal of crushed grapes sitting in their own juice in a 5 gal bucket. I'm assuming at some point, it won't look like a witch's brew suitable only for St. Patty's Day. I mean, red wine gets its color from the skins. Now I have green juice.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Don't add pectic enzyme and SO2 together as the SO2 will inactivate the enzyme. Pitch the SO2 first and wait at least 12 hrs. Then pitch the enzyme and wait another 12 hrs. Then set brix, take PH readings and adjust as needed, THEN pitch the yeast.

Didn't know that! Oops. I'll add some more enzymes today, and adjust everything tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[Boatboy24]

Okay. That sounded dumb, even to me.
Since these are 'white' grapes, is there even a purpose in pressing after fermentation?

And speaking of that... The only other time I did these grapes, I crushed and hung them like I was making jelly, and fermented just the juice.
Right now I have about 3 gal of crushed grapes sitting in their own juice in a 5 gal bucket. I'm assuming at some point, it won't look like a witch's brew suitable only for St. Patty's Day. I mean, red wine gets its color from the skins. Now I have green juice.

With a white, crush and press prior to fermentation - don't ferment on the skins.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Yeah--well, it's kind of tough not knowing variety. But maybe I can give you a few clues as to how to approach things.

Typically, on red wines you crush and ferment on the skins. You don't use pectic enzyme on those grapes that have a tiny pulp on them and are thin skinned. But if the have a big pulp on them, like a concord grape does, then you would use pectic enzyme. You can bag any fruit--even grapes. But you should just toss the bag into the fermentor with the juice. Segregating the pulp and the skin is not the best way to do it unless it would be for stylistic purposes. You should have a warm ferment of 78-80 degrees to get a very good red wine, and a cooler ferment to get a rose'.

On whites--same thing applies. If it's a big pulpy grape such as a Niagara then you'd use pectic enzyme. If not, then don't use it because it can make the mash too slimy. Pressing white grapes and using the juice only is prefered as far as color preservation goes. There are some white grapes that develop brownness on their skins when ripe. You would not want to ferment those on the skins because they will leave the brown color in the wine.

And the difference between pressing and using juice only and fermenting on the pulp and skins can give a stylistic difference to the resulting wine. Such is the case with Niagara grapes. Some of us really like that intense fruitiness of the Niagara--what some people call a "foxy" flavor. The only way to preserve that flavor is fermenting on the pulp and skins. To reduce the fruitiness, you press and use the juice only.

Soooooo------as you can see---there's no right or wrong or totally easy answer to the question you posed. It depends on what you're working with--depends on your stylistic preference.

With a white, crush and press prior to fermentation - don't ferment on the skins.

And you guys wonder why I'm unsure what I want to do.

Since I've never, in 4 years, fermented on the pulp (grapes, or any other fruit), I'll probably go with the straight juice again.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Turock]

As I said---with some grapes, like Niagara, you can get more flavor from fermenting on the whole grape skins and all. Niagara is a green grape--well, yellow if you let them fully ripen, but we don't like them that way because the good flavor is gone by then---so with a green grape, the mash will look green in color. But by the time you rack it from the primary, it looks like any other white.

Just as an experiment--you could ferment on the whole fruit, skins and all. You might like the style of wine that that produces. If the skins are not brown--you COULD ferment on the skins without causing other problems.

Deciding whether or not to ferment on the skins is a style question. This is why you need to know the characteristics of the grape you're using and how it responds to different techniques.

 

[Turock]

.....and the actual pulp of the grape adds lots of flavor too, that you don't get by just pressing for the juice.

 

[Old Philosopher]

.....

Deciding whether or not to ferment on the skins is a style question. This is why you need to know the characteristics of the grape you're using and how it responds to different techniques.

That's why I'll play it safe, and just use the juice, doing what I know best.
I have NO plums this year, and only 50% of my usual apple yield. Bad year. I don't want to 'experiment' this year with the only fruit I have.