A topic that is almost never discussed

[scotty]

OK so i want to talk about de gassing again.


Sorry but i try so many diferent combinations of time running the drill and amount of time wating to run the drill again.
Im back to one minute or a bit more with constant reversin of the direction then waiting till the bubbles clear. then repeat.


i also keep the impeller at a middle to low level in the carboy to avoid the foaming. I never let it get to the whirlpool state becaus i feel that is is not degassing unless the wine is being aggitated


Usually i browse or do other things while waiting.
I have just resorted to doing a degassing routine again the next day.


Much bettersatisfactory resultsafter repeating the next day




I would surely like comments on your procedures. other than just following the kit instructions if you do kits.

 

[redwineleo]

Scotty: I too am concerned about degassing. I'm in the dark ages still utilizing a stirring spoon, though. And yes, it will either drain you physically or make you look like Popeye (it drains me). My question would be if I'm that concerned about degassing, can I degass again just prior to bottling? Or is the risk of oxcidation too high to do this? I've had a cab bulk aging for about 6 months that I'm probably going to bottle this weekend and I want to make darn sure the gas is out. Am I just being to copncerned?

 

[PolishWineP]

We degas before we bulk age. Aging will also help to release CO2. We have found the orange cap with the Vacu-Vin to be the most effective at degassing.
http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=4317


http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=14604


Put the orange cap on, attach the Vacu-Vin cork on and use the Vacu-Vin pump to pull the CO2 out of your wine. No drill, no spoon, no fuss, no muss!

 

[scubaman2151]

Ok I may be dumb but how does that pull gas out of a LIQUID? I get you can pull it out of the air in the carboy, but your telling me that can pull the co2 gas out of the liquid on the bottom of the carboy?

 

[scotty]

You are thinking of a vacum type of de gassing. Lower the atmosphere in the carboy and co2 rises. Its like pumping down the refrigeration systems or the ac on your car except we do not reduce the atmosphere so much as to causethe wine to boil.The whip or impeller method that i use beats the wine up and the co2 separates .
Havent you degassed any wine yet????

 

[dfwwino]

I usually speed up and slow down my drilling, mixing it up to try to get as much gas escaping as I can. As I mentioned in another post, last time I used the drill stirrer for about 10 minutes total then used the Vacuvin for the first time and kept sucking gas out for an hour or so. My hand was sore, I almost had a blister, and I had worked up a sweat.


I'm certainly not a scientific genius--that's why I'm a shyster--but you are taking air out of the top of the carboy, whichchanges the pressure above the wine, causing the gas to release. The opposite will occur if you blow on the orange cap with a racking cane inserted in the middle of the cap. The wine will displace from the carboy and flow up the racking cane. By the way, I saw someone selling a racking cane for this purpose with an air filter to filter your breath before entering the carboy. Do you think this is necessary with fully-fermented wine. Seems easier that if you're a bit anal just to rinse with Everclear, spit it out and blow. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[scotty]

I sanatize my lips by gargling with a sulfite solution before racking.

 

[Dean]

I degas over 2 days like you Scotty. But I also bulk age with the airlock on so that it can continue to degass. Usually 9 months to 1 year are sufficient. If you are concerned about liquid in airlocks during this stage, you can purchase those breathable silicone bungs that allow CO2, and stop air from going in. I think that George was going to look into bringing them in. If George doesn't have them, I'm sure he can get them. If not, morebeer has them online.

When you seal up your carboys with wax and bung, while you prevent stuff from getting in, you are also prevent gasses from getting out. Get those silicone bungs and you get the best of both worlds, and you don't have ot worry about a dry airlock.

 

[dfwwino]

I sanatize my lips by gargling with a sulfite solution before racking.

I'm sure you must be joking. Yuck. I've got an autosiphon, which is worth the money rather than gargling sulfites. Or at least use the everclear. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[Wade E]

I bea the snot out of it with the stainless steel mix stir for about 7 minutes and then use the brake bleeder. I create a vacuum by pumpiing it until it will hod a little while and then check in on it every few hours. Ill pump it back up to 22" and check again later. I repeat until it will hold around !5"-20" of vacuum.

Edited by: wade

 

[scotty]

I sanatize my lips by gargling with a sulfite solution before racking.

I'm sure you must be joking. Yuck. I've got an autosiphon, which is worth the money rather than gargling sulfites. Or at least use the everclear.

Are you sure that i was joking????????

 

[PeterZ]

Scuba,

CO2 is a funny chemical. First some basics. Water (and wine) at room temp and sea level will hold about 35 ppm of gas. The hotter it is, the less it will hold, until it is almost zero at 212F. Under normal conditions, like a glass of water on the counter, the gasses would be about 7 ppm O2 and 28 ppm N2, mirroring the composition of the air. Thus we have the three factors governing how much dissolved gas is in a liquid: temp, what gasses, and pressure.

Here's where CO2 is funny. CO2 can exist in many states in water, depending on pH. From low pH to high pH the forms are: CO2 gas, H2CO3 (carbonic acid), HCO3- (bicarbonate ion), CO3-2 (carbonate ion).

When wine ferments the yeast release so much CO2 that it drives all of the other gasses off, leaving all 35 ppm as CO2. At wine pH, however, the vast majority of CO2 is in the H2CO3 form. The gas remains the same, but there is another 350 ppm or so of H2CO3. The net result is that the wine is holding 300 - 500 ppm (mg/L) of CO2, or 9200 mg CO2 in a 23 L batch.

Now CO2 gas weighs in at just under 2000 mg/L at 1 atmosphere (14.7 psia) pressure, so that 23 L batch of wine has about 4.5L of CO2 dissolved in it. Most of it is in the carbonic acid form, which is a liquid and takes up almost no space. The ratio of CO2 to H2CO3 is ruled solely by pH, so as you pull CO2 out of the wine the H2CO3 converts to CO2 and H2O to maintain the ratio. This happens pretty fast, so the foam just keeps coming.

That's why degassing is so hard.

 

[bovinewines]

PWP:
How long does it take to use the vacuvin when you're working with about 6 gallons?

 

[PolishWineP]

Oh geeze! Bert is always nagging me to keep notes!

It really all depends on all the regular factors. Type of wine, age, temp, etc. The cool thing about doing it this way is that you can work on it throughout the day without any mess involved. You sanitize your equipment, then get started. Pump, stop, pump, stop, lay down the pump and go have lunch, pump, stop... You vessel isn't open to the air with it's cat hair and fruit flies. While the drill method can be effective, it can also be messy, especially when you're working on this project alone.

(yes, Bert and I have had a mess or 2 when making wine.)
Another bonus to this method is that when making a wine with a lot of lees, you don't have to disturb any settled lees to degas.

 

[PolishWineP]

Scuba,
Pour some Mountain Dew or something into a clear wine bottle and try it. Everyone who drinks wine should have a VacuVin and some of the corks for it. It helps prevent over-drinking.

 

[Mr Robusto]

I did a combination of using a drill witht he whip and the Vino-Vac.


I would whip up the wine pretty good, then place the orange cap back on and then use the Vino-Vac.


worked pretty good, once i figured it out.


Keep in mind to have a bottle of sanitizer to spray everything each time you touch the wine!

 

[Fruit n Nut]

We degas before we bulk age. Aging will also help to release CO2. We have found the orange cap with the Vacu-Vin to be the most effective at degassing.
http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=4317


http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=14604


Put the orange cap on, attach the Vacu-Vin cork on and use the Vacu-Vin pump to pull the CO2 out of your wine. No drill, no spoon, no fuss, no muss!

Have too agree with PWP its certainly the easiest and cheapest way to degass, another not too expensive way is by using the mityvac vacuum pump.

 

[Lenore]

I use my Mixstir and stir it up for 1 minute each direction for each step of the stirring. When I bottle, I fill each bottle and then vacu-vin each bottle, allow each bottle to settle and then cork. This method for me has resulted in less work and still wine. The wine is uncorked for about 15 minutes while I fill and de-gas. This hasn't caused any oxygen problems yet and hopefully will not.


Hope this helps,
Lenore

 

[scubaman2151]

thanks guys for all the help, if any of you need that brake bleeder, there is that harbor frieghtstore about 2 miles away and I could ship it to you.


Scuba


PM me if you need one.Edited by: Scubaman2151

 

[weltercat]

Scuba,

CO2 is a funny chemical. First some basics. Water (and wine) at room temp and sea level will hold about 35 ppm of gas. The hotter it is, the less it will hold, until it is almost zero at 212F. Under normal conditions, like a glass of water on the counter, the gasses would be about 7 ppm O2 and 28 ppm N2, mirroring the composition of the air. Thus we have the three factors governing how much dissolved gas is in a liquid: temp, what gasses, and pressure.

Here's where CO2 is funny. CO2 can exist in many states in water, depending on pH. From low pH to high pH the forms are: CO2 gas, H2CO3 (carbonic acid), HCO3- (bicarbonate ion), CO3-2 (carbonate ion).

When wine ferments the yeast release so much CO2 that it drives all of the other gasses off, leaving all 35 ppm as CO2. At wine pH, however, the vast majority of CO2 is in the H2CO3 form. The gas remains the same, but there is another 350 ppm or so of H2CO3. The net result is that the wine is holding 300 - 500 ppm (mg/L) of CO2, or 9200 mg CO2 in a 23 L batch.

Now CO2 gas weighs in at just under 2000 mg/L at 1 atmosphere (14.7 psia) pressure, so that 23 L batch of wine has about 4.5L of CO2 dissolved in it. Most of it is in the carbonic acid form, which is a liquid and takes up almost no space. The ratio of CO2 to H2CO3 is ruled solely by pH, so as you pull CO2 out of the wine the H2CO3 converts to CO2 and H2O to maintain the ratio. This happens pretty fast, so the foam just keeps coming.

That's why degassing is so hard.

I am rusty at chemistry! Not that I have ever known much but
you are saying that as you pull out the C02 the H2C02 is converted back into
C02 and H20? No wonder I can keep pumping my myti-vac and keep getting bubbles.



I would assume that wine would degas on its own or at least reach the equilibrium
your talking about if it is aged in a wine barrel as opposed to a glass carboy
since the barrel is permeable by the C02.