Why Add Water to Innitial Juice for Making Wine?

[Afshinsadri]

Hi Guys
I have some questions that confuse me that why we nedd to added water to juice like Orange Juice or etc. for making wine.
some people said water for making balance pH(acidity) but I read Orange Juice have pH between 3.30-4.19 as you can see file under below(pH of common foods).
so can you help me find real answer and scientific answer why we need to added water to juice?
because water is one famous buffer that it can change pH to High, and another our story is that we have juice with pH 3.30-4.19 and also with "table wines, preferred pH levels are 3.1 – 3.4 for white wines, and 3.3 – 3.6 for red wines. Preferred titratable acidity levels are 7 – 9 g/L for white wines, and 6 – 8 g/L for red wines(you can find this in "Monitoring acids...." file)" so if we added water, we change pH to higher than the table wines that I mention.
so why we need to added water for making wine ?

Thank You.

 

[NorCal]

The only time I’ve see water added to make wine has been to reduce the sugar levels to lower the resulting alcohol level In the wine. This is done from a stylistic desire of the wine or to avoid a stuck fermentation. If there is so much sugar that the resulting level of alcohol in the wine would be higher than the chosen yeast’s capability to consume all the sugar, fermentation would stop short; “stuck” and result in a sweet(er) wine due to the residual sugar left in the wine.

 

[sour_grapes]

so can you help me find real answer and scientific answer why we need to added water to juice?

Yes, maybe you should start by telling where you got the idea that you need to add water to juice? That is rarely, rarely done.

 

[pillswoj]

Sounds like someone found Jack Keller's website and recipes......I always found those extremely low in fruit.

 

[Afshinsadri]

The only time I’ve see water added to make wine has been to reduce the sugar levels to lower the resulting alcohol level In the wine. This is done from a stylistic desire of the wine or to avoid a stuck fermentation. If there is so much sugar that the resulting level of alcohol in the wine would be higher than the chosen yeast’s capability to consume all the sugar, fermentation would stop short; “stuck” and result in a sweet(er) wine due to the residual sugar left in the wine.

Hi
thank you for your reply
I want to making wine with orange and I research in any website, they are said add water sugar and etc like as this links:
https://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques33.asphttps://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/orange-wine-pectinase-or-not.70238/I dont know why we need to add water !!!!!

 

[Afshinsadri]

Sounds like someone found Jack Keller's website and recipes......I always found those extremely low in fruit.

Hi my friend
yeah this website and another said we need to add water.
but I dont know how much and why ?

 

[Afshinsadri]

Yes, maybe you should start by telling where you got the idea that you need to add water to juice? That is rarely, rarely done.

I read this in very more website for making orange wine.
winemaking: requested recipe (Orange Wines)
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/orange-wine-pectinase-or-not.70238/

 

[NorCal]

Hi my friend yeah this website and another said we need to add water.
but I dont know how much and why ?

The fundamentals of wine making is yeast converts sugar to alcohol (Fermentation). The yeast need a hospitable environment to successfully do their thing. Two of the parameters controlling the likely outcome of fermentation is the potential alcohol and pH.

- You determine the % sugar in solution with a hydrometer. They are $8 on Amazon.
- You measure pH with a meter, also pretty inexpensive on Amazon

If I had fruit juice with 18%- 22% sugar and pH between 3.1 - 3.6, I wouldn’t add water, sugar, acid or base. Any more or less to these ranges for non-grape wines than adjustments have to be made. Water to bring brix (% sugar) down or acid/base to adjust pH.

It could be that in the recipe you are looking at, that they are adding water and sugar to achieve a volume target, but the resulting wine, as mentioned above would be thin.

 

[Afshinsadri]

The fundamentals of wine making is yeast converts sugar to alcohol (Fermentation). The yeast need a hospitable environment to successfully do their thing. Two of the parameters controlling the likely outcome of fermentation is the potential alcohol and pH.

- You determine the % sugar in solution with a hydrometer. They are $8 on Amazon.
- You measure pH with a meter, also pretty inexpensive on Amazon

If I had fruit juice with 18%- 22% and pH between 3.1 - 3.6, I wouldn’t add a thing. Any more or less than adjustments have to be made. Water to bring brix (% sugar) down or acid/base to adjust pH.

It could be that in the recipe you are looking at, that they are adding water and sugar to achieve a volume target, but the resulting wine, as mentioned above would be thin.

Hi
Thanks Boss for your comment.
first: what is your means 18%-22% ?
is this a Brix?
second: I read some article that some fruit dont have enough hydrogen and oxygen for convert gluccos to alcohol process so we need dilute our juice, I dont know how many be authentic their claims but I am making Orange wine with your order and report my results.

 

[NorCal]

Hi
Thanks Boss for your comment.
first: what is your means 18%-22% ?
is this a Brix?
second: I read some article that some fruit dont have enough hydrogen and oxygen for convert gluccos to alcohol process so we need dilute our juice, I dont know how many be authentic their claims but I am making Orange wine with your order and report my results.

Yes, in the wine world they use the word brix as % sugar. So 18 brix would be a solution with 18% sugar. You will also herather word specific gravity, which is the same thing, but would be a number.
1.0741 is the same as 18 brix. Either way, you are measuring how much sugar you are starting with, which is key.

 

[Rice_Guy]

There are several reasons to add water to wine:
1) water is a cheap ingredient, by adding water industry can produce a product which is just good enough to tell what it is. In this case one probably will add back sugar, acid, nitrogen, trace minerals to get close to the normal flavor and preservative (alcohol) levels. *** COG *** cost of goods ***
2) as @NorCal points out water doesn’t contain sugar so it can be used to reduce the final alcohol level. With grapes this is a minor issue as dropping the theoretical alcohol from 14% to 11%. It is a major issue with high osmotic pressure solutions (ex honey or simple syrup) since yeast won’t grow/ reproduce. In this case one has to be below 21% theoretical alcohol since there aren’t industrial yeast (fuel producers) that will live.
3) The acid concentration can be a reason for adding water. If one has a must in the normal TA range for grape it tastes good when combined with the light sweetness alcohol provides. If one has a TA above 1% it will probably require significant sugar (ex SpGrav 1.010) in the finished wine to taste OK. FYI I like the style of high TA as 1% or 1.15% with lots of sugar in the finished wine.
An extreme example could be lemon juice with a TA of 5.0% to 7.0%. We find it unpleasant unless diluted.
4) Low pH is a preservative and can prevent yeast from growing. By adding water one dilutes the acids to a level where they don’t buffer the must at an unworkable pH. ,,, note this is also related to TA
5) Mechanical working property. Example dandelion, coffee beans
and elder flowers don’t contain much liquid, or tamarand and joustaberry (ripe) produces a thick paste which wouldn’t ferment well.

The problem in adding water:
1) The flavor intensity decreases. If you have lots of a fruit as orange, and the orange has a pH about 4 and a TA of 1% to 1.3% you could do a style with high acid and finished sugar and flavor or you could do a style with “normal” TA of .6% and a dry finish at 0.992. For the purpose of shelf life I would add acid to drop the pH below 3.5, possibly with acid blend and possibly with a high TA as lemon or cranberry or currant.
A side note if I am formulating and want to put “natural” or “100% juice” on the label I will blend low TA as pear with high TA as cranberry to build the target flavor.
2) Wine is a preservative, at 11% alcohol food poisoning organisms don’t grow

All in all, the reason to add water and how much is which property are we optimizing for. Grape must is a good model system because it works.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Forgot possibly the number 1 reason
0) I have a 3 gallon carboy or 5 gallon carboy and will top it off

 

[Afshinsadri]

There are several reasons to add water to wine:
1) water is a cheap ingredient, by adding water industry can produce a product which is just good enough to tell what it is. In this case one probably will add back sugar, acid, nitrogen, trace minerals to get close to the normal flavor and preservative (alcohol) levels. *** COG *** cost of goods ***
2) as @NorCal points out water doesn’t contain sugar so it can be used to reduce the final alcohol level. With grapes this is a minor issue as dropping the theoretical alcohol from 14% to 11%. It is a major issue with high osmotic pressure solutions (ex honey or simple syrup) since yeast won’t grow/ reproduce. In this case one has to be below 21% theoretical alcohol since there aren’t industrial yeast (fuel producers) that will live.
3) The acid concentration can be a reason for adding water. If one has a must in the normal TA range for grape it tastes good when combined with the light sweetness alcohol provides. If one has a TA above 1% it will probably require significant sugar (ex SpGrav 1.010) in the finished wine to taste OK. FYI I like the style of high TA as 1% or 1.15% with lots of sugar in the finished wine.
An extreme example could be lemon juice with a TA of 5.0% to 7.0%. We find it unpleasant unless diluted.
4) Low pH is a preservative and can prevent yeast from growing. By adding water one dilutes the acids to a level where they don’t buffer the must at an unworkable pH. ,,, note this is also related to TA
5) Mechanical working property. Example dandelion, coffee beans
and elder flowers don’t contain much liquid, or tamarand and joustaberry (ripe) produces a thick paste which wouldn’t ferment well.

The problem in adding water:
1) The flavor intensity decreases. If you have lots of a fruit as orange, and the orange has a pH about 4 and a TA of 1% to 1.3% you could do a style with high acid and finished sugar and flavor or you could do a style with “normal” TA of .6% and a dry finish at 0.992. For the purpose of shelf life I would add acid to drop the pH below 3.5, possibly with acid blend and possibly with a high TA as lemon or cranberry or currant.
A side note if I am formulating and want to put “natural” or “100% juice” on the label I will blend low TA as pear with high TA as cranberry to build the target flavor.
2) Wine is a preservative, at 11% alcohol food poisoning organisms don’t grow

All in all, the reason to add water and how much is which property are we optimizing for. Grape must is a good model system because it works.

Hi
Thank You For Your Comment and your accurate information.
but I am so confuse, you better than me that freshly squeezed orange have pH about 4 and TA(Citric Acid) of 8-10 g/L as you can see file under below.
So if we have Orange juice with pH about 3.5 and TA of 8 g/L with SG 1.040, we add just sugar until our SG of orange juice reach 1.089 !!!!am I right?

 

[mikewatkins727]

Back in the year 17 I had a "Ha ha, let's see what happens" moment and started an orange wine. I used a product called "Simply Orange". I used two bottles, each being 2.7 qt. Measuring Brix and adding sugar I wound up adding abt 2 lbs for a Brix of 22.5. I was a quart short of two gallons, which I did add. I used K1-V1116 yeast, YN, pectic enzyme and tannin. If I do this again (likely) think I will cut back on tannin. Originally used .75 tsp. Wine finished dry and I back sweeten with 2 cups of 2:1 sugar solution. Yielded 5+ btls. Quite good IMHO. ABV 12.5%

I have found even with fruit wines, the longer aging the better. Have about three bottles left, aging going on year 3.

 

[Afshinsadri]

Forgot possibly the number 1 reason
0) I have a 3 gallon carboy or 5 gallon carboy and will top it off

Sorry I did not take it.
where can I put this quote ?

 

[Afshinsadri]

Back in the year 17 I had a "Ha ha, let's see what happens" moment and started an orange wine. I used a product called "Simply Orange". I used two bottles, each being 2.7 qt. Measuring Brix and adding sugar I wound up adding abt 2 lbs for a Brix of 22.5. I was a quart short of two gallons, which I did add. I used K1-V1116 yeast, YN, pectic enzyme and tannin. If I do this again (likely) think I will cut back on tannin. Originally used .75 tsp. Wine finished dry and I back sweeten with 2 cups of 2:1 sugar solution. Yielded 5+ btls. Quite good IMHO. ABV 12.5%

I have found even with fruit wines, the longer aging the better. Have about three bottles left, aging going on year 3.

Thank you for your information bro.
but with my poor english I have question.
I dont understand this: "2 cups of 2:1 sugar solution"
it means you add 2 cups sugar to 1 cup wine for make sweetness your wines?

 

[mikewatkins727]

We make a sugar solution of 2 cups of sugar dissolved in 1 cup of water to sweeten.

 

[Rice_Guy]

yes, with that analysis I would just add sugar.

So if we have Orange juice with pH about 3.5 and TA of 8 g/L with SG 1.040, we add just sugar until our SG of orange juice reach 1.089 !!!!am I right?

with a gravity of 1.040 you are at 11.24% sugar . 0.43 kg per gallon (3.79 liter)
the solution target is 26.5 or 27% sugar. . . . . 1.04kg per 3.79 liter
approximately 0.6 kg sugar will be required ,,, which will increase the liquid volume slightly

Hanna has good equipment. The article states “typically “ the juice is (0.6 to 0.8%) 6 to 8 grams per liter. There is variation in juice analysis from farm to farm and depending if it early picking or late season picking. The variety I quoted was navel orange, I could have picked blood orange or cutie orange or ugly fruit etc to give a different starting analysis.

If I have a Hanna TA tester I would use what ever number it said. I have been doing wet chemistry Titrations.

 

[Afshinsadri]

We make a sugar solution of 2 cups of sugar dissolved in 1 cup of water to sweeten.

Ouh, I dont think diluting wine is the right thing to do.
As our friend @Rice_Guy is said,some body add water for commercial purpose sometimes.

 

[Afshinsadri]

yes, with that analysis I would just add sugar.

with a gravity of 1.040 you are at 11.24% sugar . 0.43 kg per gallon (3.79 liter)
the solution target is 26.5 or 27% sugar. . . . . 1.04kg per 3.79 liter
approximately 0.6 kg sugar will be required ,,, which will increase the liquid volume slightly

Hanna has good equipment. The article states “typically “ the juice is (0.6 to 0.8%) 6 to 8 grams per liter. There is variation in juice analysis from farm to farm and depending if it early picking or late season picking. The variety I quoted was navel orange, I could have picked blood orange or cutie orange or ugly fruit etc to give a different starting analysis.

If I have a Hanna TA tester I would use what ever number it said. I have been doing wet chemistry Titrations.

Thank you again for your information.
anyway I will make orange wine with our analysis and another with different ratio of water and orange juice and I will write my result with my document.
but I read some article maybe interest for you but I dont know how many authentic.
Just Add Water: Trying McGee’s Experiments With Wine
it seems they dont check their pH wines.