What do I add when I transfer to secondary?

[MSIMSON]

I know that I need to move the must to my secondary fermenter but I don't know what else I should add (Sorbate? Sparklloyd? K-Meta? Campden tablets?)

Here is what I've done so far:

7/23 - Mixed the following:
-20 lbs blueberries (frozen, thawed, mashed, in fermentation bag)
-72 oz. (.56 gal.) Grape juice concentrate
-7.5 lbs white granulated sugar
-7.5 tsp acid blend
-1 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient
-2.5 tsp pectic enzyme
-6 potassium metabisulfite (campden) tablets (crushed)
-water to 6 gallons

Specific Gravity = 1.110

7/24 - added yeast, stirred, covered with lid and airlock

7/25 - cracked lid to allow oxygen intake, stirred

7/26 - stirred, found a small amount of mold on the inside of the lid, sterilized the lid and replaced it. Still cracked open.

7/27 - stirred, read specific gravity, (1.060) sealed with (re-sterilized) lid and airlock (No mold found)

7/28 - stirred, read specific gravity, (1.040) re-sterilized lid and airlock and resealed. (No mold found)

7/29 - stirred, read specific gravity, (1.025) re-sterilized lid and airlock and resealed. (No mold found)

7/30 - stirred, read specific gravity, (1.015) re-sterilized lid and airlock and resealed. (Found some brown stuff around the inside rim of the bucket but it just looked like brown yeast so I'm guessing the yeast had just died since there isn't much sugar left for it to eat.)

First of all, does all of that seem to be in order? Did I miss anything major?

Secondly, I plan on siphoning to the secondary fermenter tomorrow regardless of what the SG is. Does that sound okay? And do I add anything to the secondary fermenter to prevent bacteria growth and/or oxidation?

Finally, how exactly do I strain the juice out of a 20 lb bag of blueberries? I don't have a strainer large enough... Any ideas?

Thanks in advance!

(P.S. I posted a similar thread to this in a different section, but then I realized that this is more of a beginner question and thus should be posted in this section. I couldn't figure out how to delete the other thread though...)

 

[robie]

You don't need to add anything when you move the wine to secondary fermentation. You will stabilize only after fermentation is completely finished both primary and secondary. The idea of secondary is to seal up the wine with an air lock and restrict it from getting much oxygen.

It doesn't need topped of in secondary. Just make sure it has an air lock. Keep the temperature in the 70'sF.

Maybe some of the fruit wine guys/gals will assist you concerning straining your fruit.

 

[Scott]

Looks like you have it going well. Yes transfer to secondary leaving some headspace (the gas will protect the wine) and check sg until same reading for 3 days then degass and add P Sorbate and K Meta. Can let it clear on it's own or add sparklloyd if wanting.
For straining the juice from bag is to squeeze with your hands.
Good Luck!

 

[MSIMSON]

Looks like you have it going well. Yes transfer to secondary leaving some headspace (the gas will protect the wine) and check sg until same reading for 3 days then degass and add P Sorbate and K Meta. Can let it clear on it's own or add sparklloyd if wanting.
For straining the juice from bag is to squeeze with your hands.
Good Luck!

What does degas mean? And how do I do it? (Sorry, stupid questions probably.)

Also, I have both K Meta and NA Meta, what is the difference? Advantages/disadvantages of each?

Also, after I degas and add P Sorbate and K or NA Meta, do I stir it? I'm assuming I'll want to make sure those get mixed in but I also don't want to add a lot of oxygen...

Should I stir it before I take my hydrometer readings while in the secondary? Since my secondary is a carboy and it won't be topped off, how to I get the hydrometer out of the carboy?

Finally, when secondary fermentation is done (SG is unchanged for 3 days and I've added the Sorbate, K or NA Meta, and Sparklloyd) do I bottle it then?

How do I go about sweetening it? When does that come into question?

I know I just threw a ton of questions at you, any help you can give me is appreciated! Thanks again!

 

[Deezil]

Degassing, there's several ways to cross that bridge. It basically means to remove the CO2 created by fermentation, through mechanical means.

• Some stir manually forever.
• Some people have success at "splash-racking" and then letting bulk aging remove the rest of the CO2.
• Some get out their power drill and attach a 'whip' to it; be careful if you go this route as you dont want to create a tornade/hurricane type shape, as this actually pulls air down the center of the vortex and will help oxidize your wine (not a good thing)
• Some of us winemakers who've been doing it a bit longer, have invested in vacuum pumps to help us with degassing, along with several other winemaking chores.
• Some just let it sit, as bulk aging will get most of the CO2 out provided its warmer than about 70F

K-Meta & NA-Meta. Most people these days watch their sodium intake (NA), while most people dont get enough potassium (K); this is enough to get most of us using K-Meta as we dont want to build-up large amounts of excess sodium in our wines (you have to add this multiple times when you bulk age for long periods). I would use K-meta for any wine additions, and NA-Meta for cleaning solutions.

Just word to the wise, you dont want to breathe in any amount of either way; they both work the same way, as far as we're concerned .

When adding K-meta & Sorbate, you'll want to add the K-meta first. Add each chemical to a small glass of wine, and ensure its dissolved before pouring this back into the main batch. This will help to let you know it IS all dissolved, as well as keeping the physical particles of the additives from creating excess nucleation points for bound CO2 (which would make the wine foam, froth, volcano over).
K-meta first, follow it with Sorbate. The K-meta stuns the yeast, then the Sorbate can bind to the yeast easier, to keep them from multiplying. Sorbate is only needed when you intend to add additional sugars to sweeten the wine; not needed if you wont be adding any sugar for sweetness. Stirring is still a good idea, although you dont need to be overly vigorous if you're sure your additives are dissolved.

When starting a batch, in the beginning, making sure everything is stirred sufficiently is crucial although now that you're in secondary, and it sounds like you've racked, things have been mixed well enough for a hydrometer reading already. These readings usually take place outside of the carboy, because its near impossible to draw the hydrometer back out of the carboy. They have stand-alone cylinders you can find at the LHBS or there's something like a Fermtech Wine Thief

(Not mine, borrowed via Google )

As you can see, it slides in the carboy & with some maneuvering, it draws up a sample and you can then measure with your hydrometer inside this wine thief. Simply pushing the nose against the side of the carboy, breaks the pressure-held seal enough that the wine slides back into the carboy.

You wont want to bottle immediately after fermentation ceases, for several reasons. For one, you dont ever want to bottle a wine still holding fining agents (sparkolloid) because these arent intended for consumption. These are intended to attach-to and sediment-out haze-causing particles of various sorts. And like your next question - you havent sweetened yet.. And who's to say thats the only tweak you want to make? Maybe you want oak, or vanilla beans, or chocolate, or maybe you want to add additional fruit for more flavor.. So no, dont bottle yet. You'll want to wait until the wine is 'where you want it' flavor-wise, sweetness-wise, make sure its clear (read a newspaper through it) and thoroughly degassed (either add some to a small wine bottle and shake, then remove your thumb and listen for a large pop; or you can feel larger amounts of dissolved CO2 on your tongue similiar to drinking soda)

Sweetening, I've touched on some... This is done after you've added the K-meta + Sorbate combo. I recommend waiting at least 24-48hrs after adding Sorbate, before adding sugar. Sometimes I wait a week, just because other things come up. If you've added sorbate once, and you wait.. Even six months.. You dont need to add it again when it comes time to sweeten. The key is to give time for the Sorbate to incorporate itself throughout the wine column. You'll also want to dissolve any sugar you're adding, prior to adding to the main column of wine, similiar in action to adding K-meta or Sorbate, although on a larger scale (more sugar). Sometimes it helps to put the wine you're adding sugar to, on the stove, but only on the lowest setting; it helps the sugar dissolve.

And I threw some answers at ya... What are we playing? Information Dodgeball? Duck!

 

[GaDawg]

When you transfer to the secondary, all you add is love

 

[Turock]

Do not add sorbate until the wine is clear. And only if you sweeten. Allow it to sit in the secondary undisturbed--rack as needed. Bulk aging is important in order to get the bulk of the sediment out of the wine, for flavors to age, and for the CO2 to come out of the wine. I don't like manual degassing because you risk oxidation, and you have to allow the sediment to fall out anyway--and in the time it takes for the wine to clear it is degassed on its own. So degassing seems a waste of time and just inviting oxidation.

What kind of wine is this? Seems you had enough meta in there at the primary. Maybe add 1/8 tsp per gallon when you go to rack it.

 

[robie]

Do not add sorbate until the wine is clear. And only if you sweeten. Allow it to sit in the secondary undisturbed--rack as needed. Bulk aging is important in order to get the bulk of the sediment out of the wine, for flavors to age, and for the CO2 to come out of the wine. I don't like manual degassing because you risk oxidation, and you have to allow the sediment to fall out anyway--and in the time it takes for the wine to clear it is degassed on its own. So degassing seems a waste of time and just inviting oxidation.

What kind of wine is this? Seems you had enough meta in there at the primary. Maybe add 1/8 tsp per gallon when you go to rack it.

It's a blueberry wine.

I agree about adding the sorbate to a sweetened wine toward the end. In kits they don't tell you to wait on the sorbate. I guess it is because they are in a big hurry to have you bottle (???).

I understand this is a blueberry fruit wine and not a kit. However, for a kit, the degassing part is a little different. Again, the kit manufacturers seem to be in a hurry to have you bottle. That said, they always include clarifying agents to speed up the clearing process. Because of the fast clarifying and ultra-quick bottling, the wine has to be manually degassed; not nearly enough time is given in the schedule for natural degassing.

We always tell new wine makers to follow the instructions. Doing so makes manual degassing is an absolute must. Later, as they become more experienced, they may begin to see the benefits of bulk aging. If bulk aging, with or without using the clarifiers, more natural degassing can take place as long as they bulk age with an air lock installed. They must realize it takes much longer (months) for natural degassing to take place.

 

[MSIMSON]

Degassing, there's several ways to cross that bridge. It basically means to remove the CO2 created by fermentation, through mechanical means.

• Some stir manually forever.
• Some people have success at "splash-racking" and then letting bulk aging remove the rest of the CO2.
• Some get out their power drill and attach a 'whip' to it; be careful if you go this route as you dont want to create a tornade/hurricane type shape, as this actually pulls air down the center of the vortex and will help oxidize your wine (not a good thing)
• Some of us winemakers who've been doing it a bit longer, have invested in vacuum pumps to help us with degassing, along with several other winemaking chores.
• Some just let it sit, as bulk aging will get most of the CO2 out provided its warmer than about 70F

K-Meta & NA-Meta. Most people these days watch their sodium intake (NA), while most people dont get enough potassium (K); this is enough to get most of us using K-Meta as we dont want to build-up large amounts of excess sodium in our wines (you have to add this multiple times when you bulk age for long periods). I would use K-meta for any wine additions, and NA-Meta for cleaning solutions.

Just word to the wise, you dont want to breathe in any amount of either way; they both work the same way, as far as we're concerned .

When adding K-meta & Sorbate, you'll want to add the K-meta first. Add each chemical to a small glass of wine, and ensure its dissolved before pouring this back into the main batch. This will help to let you know it IS all dissolved, as well as keeping the physical particles of the additives from creating excess nucleation points for bound CO2 (which would make the wine foam, froth, volcano over).
K-meta first, follow it with Sorbate. The K-meta stuns the yeast, then the Sorbate can bind to the yeast easier, to keep them from multiplying. Sorbate is only needed when you intend to add additional sugars to sweeten the wine; not needed if you wont be adding any sugar for sweetness. Stirring is still a good idea, although you dont need to be overly vigorous if you're sure your additives are dissolved.

When starting a batch, in the beginning, making sure everything is stirred sufficiently is crucial although now that you're in secondary, and it sounds like you've racked, things have been mixed well enough for a hydrometer reading already. These readings usually take place outside of the carboy, because its near impossible to draw the hydrometer back out of the carboy. They have stand-alone cylinders you can find at the LHBS or there's something like a Fermtech Wine Thief

(Not mine, borrowed via Google )

As you can see, it slides in the carboy & with some maneuvering, it draws up a sample and you can then measure with your hydrometer inside this wine thief. Simply pushing the nose against the side of the carboy, breaks the pressure-held seal enough that the wine slides back into the carboy.

You wont want to bottle immediately after fermentation ceases, for several reasons. For one, you dont ever want to bottle a wine still holding fining agents (sparkolloid) because these arent intended for consumption. These are intended to attach-to and sediment-out haze-causing particles of various sorts. And like your next question - you havent sweetened yet.. And who's to say thats the only tweak you want to make? Maybe you want oak, or vanilla beans, or chocolate, or maybe you want to add additional fruit for more flavor.. So no, dont bottle yet. You'll want to wait until the wine is 'where you want it' flavor-wise, sweetness-wise, make sure its clear (read a newspaper through it) and thoroughly degassed (either add some to a small wine bottle and shake, then remove your thumb and listen for a large pop; or you can feel larger amounts of dissolved CO2 on your tongue similiar to drinking soda)

Sweetening, I've touched on some... This is done after you've added the K-meta + Sorbate combo. I recommend waiting at least 24-48hrs after adding Sorbate, before adding sugar. Sometimes I wait a week, just because other things come up. If you've added sorbate once, and you wait.. Even six months.. You dont need to add it again when it comes time to sweeten. The key is to give time for the Sorbate to incorporate itself throughout the wine column. You'll also want to dissolve any sugar you're adding, prior to adding to the main column of wine, similiar in action to adding K-meta or Sorbate, although on a larger scale (more sugar). Sometimes it helps to put the wine you're adding sugar to, on the stove, but only on the lowest setting; it helps the sugar dissolve.

And I threw some answers at ya... What are we playing? Information Dodgeball? Duck!

Wow, what an incredibly detailed and helpful response! Thanks you, thank you thank you!

I just finished racking it from the bucket to the carboy. Here (see picture below) is how much head space was left in my 5 gallon carboy (There was all of it; there isn't any extra in a separate container)

A few additional questions: Since I do not have an additional carboy, when I go to rack it again, in about 10 days, should I just rack it to a bucket, then wash out the carboy, then back to the carboy for another month or so?

Also, my starting SG was 1.110 which I think is fairly high. It is now at 1.010 (still going down because it was at 1.015 yesterday) I don't think I want my wine to be this high in alcohol. If it gets down to .995 then that will mean that it's at about 15% or 16% alcohol? If that's the case, is there any way I can go about killing the yeast that won't disturb any other aspect of my wine?

Finally, I don't have any prior experience with making wine so I do not know if I want to add any oak chips or whatever else I have the option to add. I do not know how they will affect the flavor, do you have any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[Deezil]

A few additional questions: Since I do not have an additional carboy, when I go to rack it again, in about 10 days, should I just rack it to a bucket, then wash out the carboy, then back to the carboy for another month or so?

Also, my starting SG was 1.110 which I think is fairly high. It is now at 1.010 (still going down because it was at 1.015 yesterday) I don't think I want my wine to be this high in alcohol. If it gets down to .995 then that will mean that it's at about 15% or 16% alcohol? If that's the case, is there any way I can go about killing the yeast that won't disturb any other aspect of my wine?

Finally, I don't have any prior experience with making wine so I do not know if I want to add any oak chips or whatever else I have the option to add. I do not know how they will affect the flavor, do you have any suggestions?

Thanks!

Racking to the bucket, cleaning the carboy and racking back to the carboy, will only work as long as the wine is still degassing (expelling large amounts of co2, foaming during racking).. Once most of the CO2 is gone though, the protection from that increased air in the headspace is negated and that headspace becomes an accelerent to the oxidation process.

You'll need a smaller vessel, at some point, or you'll need to dilute the wine with either water (to bring down that ABV, maybe lose a tad of flavor-impact though) or another type of wine.

1.110 - 0.995 = 0.115
0.115 / 0.735 = .1564
= 15.64 % ABV

Thats assuming it hits 0.995... It could stand the water dillution to top-off the carboy, as that would reign in the ABV a bit but hard telling what it'd do to the flavor.. Would have to add a little, taste, add a little, taste.. If it starts getting thin, consider another wine to finish off.

I honestly have yet to dip into oak myself, although I'm getting ready for it. My approach will be to buy a few small bags of each different type of oak (french, american, hungarian) toasted to all the different levels (untoasted, light, medium, heavy, heavy plus).. Then i'll make "tea" of sorts, adding small amounts of oak to hot water, letting it steep and then tasting/smelling the differences.

There's a few/handful of threads in the Oak section talking about the different qualities and nuances of each type of oak; giving those a read can help you find a place to start and expand from

 

[Turock]

Depending on the culture, an ABV over 15% MIGHT kill the yeast which is something you DON'T want to do!!!!!

You should always know the alcohol tolerance of the culture you're using and not go over that. You have to use a little more discretion when adding sugar to adjust the brix so that you don't get such a high ABV--especially on fruit wines. A good, general ABV is around 12-12.5%

That wine looks very beautiful. Be sure you age it at least 9 months in the carboy. It takes fruit wines anywhere from 9 months to 1 year for the flavor to come to its peak.

I think you should evaluate it later on. Blueberry is so good on it's own--oaking might not be the best for it.