Spirits vs wine making and other assorted questions

[JohnPhoenix]

Greetings. ( edit: Long post but only 4 questions below so please read.)

I'm a beer drinker. That said I'm also hard up for funds these days so I thought I'd try making my own alcohol cheaper than I can buy a 6 pack or bottle of cheap wine.

I'm Not looking for great taste. I'm Not looking for clarity of bottle. My goal is to produce enough wine that's strong enough to get two adult males drunk as a skunk and I wanna do it in the least time possible. ( and of course this done cheaper than I can buy a 6 pack) Taste and clarity will come later once it is established we can make the strong alcohol we want.

Now our beer is about 4 percent alcohol for a regular American beer like Miller or Budwiser with Coors going as high as 5 percent. That's fine if we would produce a LOT of beer - we drink about 12 beers each to get a good buzz (over 5 hours time) . But we wont be making that much wine so I'll need to make the wine stronger. My goal is to make wine between 12 and 18 percent ABV.

Keep in mind I haven't done anything yet but watch a bunch of youtube videos on home made wine making and read a bunch of internet articles.

I know that using a still for home consumption is illegal in the USA. I came across a definition of spirits that says,

" Spirits distillation is the process of heating a fermented liquid, evaporating off the alcohol as vapor, and then condensing it back into liquid form. "

O.k. but if the liquid that's heated is fermented in the first place - why use a still? I thought the still was to actually make the fermented liquid in the first place. This is confusing.

Is the reason they use the still to concentrate the alcohol and make it stronger ? It looks like that to me from the above definition.

1) Reason why I ask is (for wine making) - isn't freezing the liquid and pouring off the alcohol doing essentially the same thing in a different manner?

2) I have read that to get your wine the strongest use Campaign yeast. It is said you can get it to 18 percent with this yeast and and the right amount of sugar. What is your opinion on this yeast? Is it best for my purposes?

3) I have read that there is a chart that suggests you can get up to 17 to 22 percent alcohol in just about 10 days - for regular beer strength ( 4 percent) only takes 3 days of fermentation. 3 days to sip my first test that will at least give me a beer like buzz if i drink a lot of them - that aint too bad time. In double this time, a week, I should have wine that at least 9 to 10 percent.

At 1:26 in this video you can see the chart.. it's on homebrewingcaps.com someplace but I dont know where. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9OHf7weO9I[/ame]

What do you think of this chart? Is this realistic?

4) Why age at all if I'm not concerned about taste or clarity?

Once the alcohol stops fermenting, isn't that as strong as it's going to get ( without re-fermenting with more sugar and yeast or using the freezer trick) Couldn't I drink this stuff right away - as soon as my hydrometer tells me it's at the percent I want and still get the buzz I want?


FYI, I know I said cheaper than a 6 pack ( or in our case, a 12 or 24 pack LOL) but I know I'll invest in some equipment such as a hydrometer and some of those CO2 caps and rubber grommets. I just want the main ingredients to be cheaper than a 6 pack in the long run. Cheaper anyway than actually buying the beer/alcohol.

I know some fine wine enthusiast may be offended by my desire to make wine of cheap ingredients like store bought juice or even Kool Aid. I don't know what kind of forum this is, that is to say if such an attitude is tolerated here. I just wanna drink the stuff not make love to it.

Looking forward to your answers, thanks.

 

[Deezil]

Greetings. ( edit: Long post but only 4 questions below so please read.)

I'm a beer drinker. That said I'm also hard up for funds these days so I thought I'd try making my own alcohol cheaper than I can buy a 6 pack or bottle of cheap wine.

I'm Not looking for great taste. I'm Not looking for clarity of bottle. My goal is to produce enough wine that's strong enough to get two adult males drunk as a skunk and I wanna do it in the least time possible. ( and of course this done cheaper than I can buy a 6 pack) Taste and clarity will come later once it is established we can make the strong alcohol we want.

Now our beer is about 4 percent alcohol for a regular American beer like Miller or Budwiser with Coors going as high as 5 percent. That's fine if we would produce a LOT of beer - we drink about 12 beers each to get a good buzz (over 5 hours time) . But we wont be making that much wine so I'll need to make the wine stronger. My goal is to make wine between 12 and 18 percent ABV.

Keep in mind I haven't done anything yet but watch a bunch of youtube videos on home made wine making and read a bunch of internet articles.

Most wine is made above 10-11-12% anyway, due to that being the rough-abouts where it becomes shelf-stable for a long period of time (not a concern here, just sharing info)

You'll probably want to stick closer to the 11-13.5% range, just because it actually has better flavor while still giving you "the giggles". Wont take much more to get you trashed at 13.5% than it would at 18%..

I know that using a still for home consumption is illegal in the USA. I came across a definition of spirits that says,

" Spirits distillation is the process of heating a fermented liquid, evaporating off the alcohol as vapor, and then condensing it back into liquid form. "

O.k. but if the liquid that's heated is fermented in the first place - why use a still? I thought the still was to actually make the fermented liquid in the first place. This is confusing.

Is the reason they use the still to concentrate the alcohol and make it stronger ? It looks like that to me from the above definition.

We dont discuss distilling on this forum, as you noted, it's illegal. And this forum is hosted in the USA; we don't want shutdown.

1) Reason why I ask is (for wine making) - isn't freezing the liquid and pouring off the alcohol doing essentially the same thing in a different manner?

2) I have read that to get your wine the strongest use Campaign yeast. It is said you can get it to 18 percent with this yeast and and the right amount of sugar. What is your opinion on this yeast? Is it best for my purposes?

3) I have read that there is a chart that suggests you can get up to 17 to 22 percent alcohol in just about 10 days - for regular beer strength ( 4 percent) only takes 3 days of fermentation. 3 days to sip my first test that will at least give me a beer like buzz if i drink a lot of them - that aint too bad time. In double this time, a week, I should have wine that at least 9 to 10 percent.

At 1:26 in this video you can see the chart.. it's on homebrewingcaps.com someplace but I dont know where. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9OHf7weO9I

What do you think of this chart? Is this realistic?

4) Why age at all if I'm not concerned about taste or clarity?

Once the alcohol stops fermenting, isn't that as strong as it's going to get ( without re-fermenting with more sugar and yeast or using the freezer trick) Couldn't I drink this stuff right away - as soon as my hydrometer tells me it's at the percent I want and still get the buzz I want?

1 - That's actually another form of distillation, called freeze-distillation or a slew of other things.. Still illegal, too..

2 - EC-1118 is a yeast strain that goes to 18% as well, although its a bit of a "bull in a china shop" when it comes to everything else.. It's a definite workhorse in the winemaking world

3 - Alcohol percentage around these parts is usually calculated using a hydrometer, with beginning and ending readings of the fermentation.. Some wines can ferment in 3-4 days but they taste better if fermented for a week or more (i know you're not concerned with taste right now, but i feel that'll change)

4 - It's one thing to say you dont care about taste.. It's another to actually sit down and drink a bottle of cloudy wine that still tastes like green apples, getting sediment stuck in your teeth, and burns a bit like vodka..

All that said, look up Skeeter Pee & Dragon's Blood. They arent "my thing", but they are for a lot of others around here.... Drinkable in some 6-8 weeks, supposedly tastes fantastic and people slam down gallons of the stuff; a real crowd favorite, even with the winemakers here who's friends claim to not like wine.

But right, once it's done fermenting, it wont get any stronger / make any more alcohol unless you add more sugar.

FYI, I know I said cheaper than a 6 pack ( or in our case, a 12 or 24 pack LOL) but I know I'll invest in some equipment such as a hydrometer and some of those CO2 caps and rubber grommets. I just want the main ingredients to be cheaper than a 6 pack in the long run. Cheaper anyway than actually buying the beer/alcohol.

I know some fine wine enthusiast may be offended by my desire to make wine of cheap ingredients like store bought juice or even Kool Aid. I don't know what kind of forum this is, that is to say if such an attitude is tolerated here. I just wanna drink the stuff not make love to it.

Looking forward to your answers, thanks.

Well you havent offended me, and I'm one of the more 'artisanal' ones here... Watch out for JohnT & Turock though

You'll be fine; you'll fit in.
Just look up Skeeter Pee & Dragon's Blood

Look up DangerDave's thread too, it's right up your alley

 

[JohnPhoenix]

1 - That's actually another form of distillation, called freeze-distillation or a slew of other things.. Still illegal, too..

Thanks for all the great answers. Er.. about this first one.. Woah.. Really..

Freezing to make it stronger is illegal? Even from a home brewer?

All the info I came across specifically mentions " Spirits" and they do seem to all indicate wine making and home brewing fall under different laws.

I just wanna double check that with you.. and of course.. I won't mention it again if I'm not allowed to talk about the technique here.

On the sister site to this one, ( homebrewtalk.com ) there is talk that the feds do not consider freezing illegal. There is also talk that freezing is not the same as distilling. They say freezing is simply concentrating the alcohol not distilling it. I need to know the absolute correct answer because if I actually "can" talk about it here, I may have to one day.

Here is that link http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/freeze-distilling-legal-268185/

 

[Deezil]

Distillation talk is not permitted here..

Although, you bringing this up did cause me to remember reading something about it (freezing) being legal to some extent (it was to a certain ABV, but i dont recall right now if it was 24-25% or 30%; wasnt higher than that though).. Past that extent, you cross the legal-line from concentration into distillation..

If I remember, I'll try to dig up the gold nugget tomorrow..

But, yeah, generally not accepted talk on the boards; most wont poke the topic with a 10ft pole and the ones that do, usually just say its illegal

 

[GreginND]

Well, I don't see why we can't discuss the law for clarification. Deezil is right, it is not about the method of concentrating the alcohol, it's about the alcohol percent. The law in the US prohibits concentration of alcohol beyond natural fermentation by any means, distillation or cryoconcentration for a home brewer.

I agree about the age. Personally if I were to drink too much cloudy wine, all that suspended yeast would make me sick to my stomach. I'll second the skeeter pee/dragons blood. Good stuff and definitely quaffable.

 

[JohnPhoenix]

Well, I don't see why we can't discuss the law for clarification. Deezil is right, it is not about the method of concentrating the alcohol, it's about the alcohol percent. The law in the US prohibits concentration of alcohol beyond natural fermentation by any means, distillation or cryoconcentration for a home brewer.

Thanks for the update. I'll try to find the info online to research it more. I'll search for the term " cryoconcentration" in the websites that talk about alcohol laws. Er.. unless you happen to know of a reference?

 

[JohnT]

Why not just purchase a bottle of everclear? Think of the time and money you will save and nothing will get you drunker quicker!

 

[jswordy]

Why not just purchase a bottle of everclear? Think of the time and money you will save and nothing will get you drunker quicker!

Where's the fun in that?

 

[JohnPhoenix]

Why not just purchase a bottle of everclear? Think of the time and money you will save and nothing will get you drunker quicker!

Sure I can do that but what happens next week when I'm broke and out of everclear?

All of us here love our alcohol to some extent or we wouldn't drink it. If wine didn't have alcohol in it, none of us would be here. For me, it's not the wine so much I want as it is any easy to make alcoholic drink - just so happens wine is easiest and cheapest to make - even if it's just an alcohol infused mixture of colored sugar water.

Sorry if that offends some hard core wine lovers.. on second thought.. heck no, I won't apologies for that.

My goal is to make my own alcoholic drink to keep the house supplied 24/7 so I won't run out. I plan to figure out the best materials to use so in the long run it works out to be cheaper than any alcohol I could buy in the store. I believe this is possible. Once I can prove to myself that I can do it, I'll have cheaper bottles as a standard and then i'll have breathing room to experiment with some better, more proper wine recipes.

I may try to learn home beer brewing after the wine making but that's more complicated ( had a friend who did it years ago with not to good results).

 

[Julie]

Actually, I think you need to find yourself another forum. You did offend a lot of winemakers on here for that comment and their was no reason for it! No one on here has bashed you and there was no reason for you to do so. Take this as a warning, you trash talk the members on this site again, you will be banned.

Seriously how can you come on here, say you want to make wine, then make and state that it is nothing more than alcohol infused mixture of colored sugar water? That does not sound like someone who wants to learn how to make wine. Actually what you need is to go watch utube, there is probably a handful of videos on making hooch.

 

[JohnPhoenix]

Julie,

I said that on the chance ( yes I assumed) that John T thought wine making wasn't for me, hence his suggestion of Everclear.

Listen.. I have to learn how to produce the alcohol FIRST and be sure I can do it before I ruin a batch of better wine using better recipes.

So for now, I'll make dirt cheap wine. I believe it's the more sensible way to learn especially on a budget.

I know many wine connoisseurs may be offended by that because they believe wine making is an art. They try to learn to make the best wine possible even comparable to store bought wines and for many of these folks, they wanna use only the best ingredients. They want perfection. They can smell the cork and tell where the grapes came from. That's fine if they want to see wine making that way but you cannot hold everyone to that standard. I shouldn't have to apologize for my beliefs. Me and the more knowledgeable wine makers who are such connoisseurs will get along just fine as long as we both understand where the other is coming from.

You say many were offended.. I didn't get any messages in my inbox. I'll be more than happy to discuss the matter with anyone who wants to chat about it.

I already stated I watched a bunch of videos and read a bunch of articles. However, I cannot get help making this alcohol without a forum. Hence my coming here. If you insist on banning me for my beliefs I think that would be wrong unless I actually break the forum rules, which I have not done.

I didn't trash talk. I simply stated I will not apologize for my preference for ingredients in my beginning wine making attempts. I do not believe I should have to and that should not offend Anyone.

I didn't say, " that (wine) it is nothing more than alcohol infused mixture of colored sugar water".

I said, " just so happens wine is easiest and cheapest to make - even if it's just an alcohol infused mixture of colored sugar water. "

--> Here I was talking about my preferred beginning ingredients - To learn to make the alcohol in the first place many people use cheap stuff like store bought juice or even Kool Aid. Kool Aid was what I had in mind when I wrote the above. Making alcohol with Kool Aid would be exactly "an alcohol infused mixture of colored sugar water." I see nothing wrong with that.

It was NOT referring to all wines. I did not call all wines " an alcohol infused mixture of colored sugar water". This is a misinterpretation on your part and perhaps the part of those you claim I offended.

 

[jamesngalveston]

if you want to make a wine with 18 percent alcohol its very easyl.
if you make dragon blood with that abc, it will kick your kkkkkk.. and it is
relatively cheap to make..
i think that if you make it , it will be about 3 bucks a bottle. and at 18 percent you want drink much...if you drink one 750 bottle it will be like 4 are 5 beers.

 

[WI_Wino]

if you want to make a wine with 18 percent alcohol its very easyl.
if you make dragon blood with that abc, it will kick your kkkkkk.. and it is
relatively cheap to make..
i think that if you make it , it will be about 3 bucks a bottle. and at 18 percent you want drink much...if you drink one 750 bottle it will be like 4 are 5 beers.

More like 7-8 beers.

18% of 750 ml = 135 ml of alcohol

1 can of beer = 355 ml @ 5% = 17.75 ml of alcohol

135 ml / 17.75 ml = 7.6

 

[seth8530]

To be technical it would be like .18*750= 135 ml pure alcohol..

Where as a single beer at 5% abv and 354 ml is 17.7 ml pure alcohol. Thus 135/17.7 yields 7.62711864406 beers. This is assuming the beer is of actually 5% and not natty light lol. BTW not a bad guess Wino!

Honestly, if you want to make hooch go make hooch, but for gods sake don't call it wine lol. I had my days of hooch making, but I have moved on and I have not looked back since.

 

[jamesngalveston]

I hate math...thanks guys for clarifying

 

[JohnPhoenix]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I found the Dragon Blood here http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f68/dragon-blood-15-days-31996/

And the Skeeter Pee here: http://skeeterpee.com/Skeeter_Pee/Welcome.html/#

My problem with these are the amounts. I'd want to make a much smaller batch to test before I spend the money for the larger batch.

What's the best way to cut down these recipes without screwing something up?

Of course I'll only try it once I prove to myself I can make cheaper alcohol in the first place. I may use Kool Aid or a 1:50 bottle of generic store bought juice -

you see I want to get used to using the hydrometer and the rest of the tools and really understand the process before I try to make these better recipes.

I plan to try to make my first alcohol sometime next week so I'm trying to gather all the info I can.

~~~~~~~~~~

Er.. About the difference between hooch and wine.. I have looked up definitions for both and they do seem to be interchangeable to me.

Hooch defined as being " an alcoholic liquor especially when inferior or illicitly made or obtained " merriam-webster dictionary

or

"Hooch is a colloquial term for alcoholic beverages" wikipedia

Seems cheap wine made with store bought juice will fit the description. I'm not finding anything that says hooch cannot also be a cheap or "inferior" wine. I also didn't see anything in the forum rules against making cheap hooch style wine. Of course I wouldn't call quality wine hooch.

I'm trying to ascertain what this forum defines as each and if there is a legitimate place here for hooch (as an inferior wine). Since hooch can also be defined as a cheap or inferior wine, it seems to me that it can discussed here.

I don't want anyone to have a problem with my wine making attempts with cheap ingredients so I'm trying to legitimize the discussion by definition.

The reason for this is because I will have to ask questions when I have problems as a beginner and since I'm using cheap ingredients to learn, it could essentially be considered hooch.

 

[RegionRat]

Try a hard cider. I make hard cider all the time. 5 gal store brand apple juice and 2 pounds brown sugar. Ferment it dry and it is 8% ABV. Very drinkable in a month or so, better the longer you age it. Mine doesnt make it past 3 month aging cuz it get bottled and drank. I have 3 batches going all the time all of different ages. As soon as the oldest batch gets bottled a new one starts that day. Some say it tastes like beer right after fermentation has ended and has not cleared or aged. To save money you could use white sugar.

Just jack up the sugar to get more ABV.


RR

 

[jamesngalveston]

let me just say this...
If u can not afford to make a 3 gallon batch of dragon blood.

duhhhhhh....6 gallon divided by 2 equals 3...

then just quit. go buy some mad dog and have fun...
sheesh.

 

[Deezil]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I found the Dragon Blood here http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f68/dragon-blood-15-days-31996/

And the Skeeter Pee here: http://skeeterpee.com/Skeeter_Pee/Welcome.html/#

My problem with these are the amounts. I'd want to make a much smaller batch to test before I spend the money for the larger batch.

What's the best way to cut down these recipes without screwing something up?

Of course I'll only try it once I prove to myself I can make cheaper alcohol in the first place. I may use Kool Aid or a 1:50 bottle of generic store bought juice -

you see I want to get used to using the hydrometer and the rest of the tools and really understand the process before I try to make these better recipes.

I plan to try to make my first alcohol sometime next week so I'm trying to gather all the info I can.

~~~~~~~~~~

Er.. About the difference between hooch and wine.. I have looked up definitions for both and they do seem to be interchangeable to me.

Hooch defined as being " an alcoholic liquor especially when inferior or illicitly made or obtained " merriam-webster dictionary

or

"Hooch is a colloquial term for alcoholic beverages" wikipedia

Seems cheap wine made with store bought juice will fit the description. I'm not finding anything that says hooch cannot also be a cheap or "inferior" wine. I also didn't see anything in the forum rules against making cheap hooch style wine. Of course I wouldn't call quality wine hooch.

I'm trying to ascertain what this forum defines as each and if there is a legitimate place here for hooch (as an inferior wine). Since hooch can also be defined as a cheap or inferior wine, it seems to me that it can discussed here.

I don't want anyone to have a problem with my wine making attempts with cheap ingredients so I'm trying to legitimize the discussion by definition.

The reason for this is because I will have to ask questions when I have problems as a beginner and since I'm using cheap ingredients to learn, it could essentially be considered hooch.

We've seen the barebones of this thread, play out numerous times over the years on this forum...... Really, I'm just trying to help by telling you dont bother.

Just make the 5 gallons.
You'll be mad at yourself if you make a gallon, because you didnt make 5; and its the same amount of work.

Larger batches are also more forgiving than smaller batches, so while I understand you trying to get your head around all the concepts involved here.. If you overdose something on a 1-gallon batch, there's not a whole lot we can recommend that you do (you're screwed most times) but if you overdo something on 5-6 gallons, its more forgiving and we'll be able to help you through more options.

And the money you're trying to save on 1 gallon vs 5 gallons is what.... 5 bucks? The only difference being some water, another bottle of lemon, some sugar, and some extra nutrient, basically...

Everyone recommending SP/DB to you, is doing it because they know it wont be a waste of your time, money, or effort.

Hard Cider is another good suggestion too


As per the wine vs hooch thing..... Around here, hooch has basically became known as something thats made without a whole lot of effort, information or worry. Its simply to get drunk, not to taste good or win an award or even worthy of sending to another member on the forum.

Say you take 5 gallons of water, add a few bags of frozen fruit (whos counting, right?), toss in a 10lbs bag of sugar, and give it some 1118 yeast... BAM, you've got hooch... No worries over temp, nutrient levels, SG, SO2, H2S, mouthfeel, aroma, flavor.... Just something to slam & get drunk...

See, we dont have a problem with people making wine that way; really, thats fine... But these same people then pop up months later, with some problem in their wine, and they want our help fixing it.... Well when there's no information, and no care, until theres a problem... It's way-past too late.

Thats hooch.

Wine.. You take notes, you care about flavor, aroma, cleanliness, mouthfeel, alcohol level balancing with sweetness and acidity.. You actually care about what you're making, enough that you have the information needed to where we can be of actual help... You're proud of it, you're proud to share it..

I really didnt see this thread turning into a course in semantics, when I originally replied, but apparently thats where its headed...

 

[RegionRat]

I did a little figuring. Old Orchard Apple juice has 216gr sugar in 64oz. That would be sg of 1.0411. So, adding 3 pounds (3.2571 pounds to be exact) of sugar per gallon of juice would yield 1.120 sg. That would yield ~17% ABV.

RR