Rosé ZERO skins time!

[CDrew]

definitely happy with the saigneé rosé decisions. I see no reason not to do it every season and get this little bonus wine

Yes, and interestingly a new paradigm. I have for 25 years dismissed rosé as inferior. But the whole home wine making thing and saigneé has helped me embrace it. And it's super good and a family pleaser. I definitely like it and it's so easy. I think every year should have several cases of rosé. The very best part is that it's ready in 6 months or so.

 

[sour_grapes]

And generally food-friendly!

 

[Chuck Rairdan]

Yes, and interestingly a new paradigm. I have for 25 years dismissed rosé as inferior. But the whole home wine making thing and saigneé has helped me embrace it. And it's super good and a family pleaser. I definitely like it and it's so easy. I think every year should have several cases of rosé. The very best part is that it's ready in 6 months or so.

May give this a whirl next season. Do you add the pressed skins in with your reds must for additional extraction/tannins?

 

[Chuck Rairdan]

... Also, any preference for a fresh press rose' vs. a reconstituted skins rose'? Do you bottle with carbonation or some residual sugar for secondary in the bottle or stabilize before bottling? I know, so many questions, but I am remembering the chilled Gallo rose' from years past and it was delightful in its own right and had a bit of sparkle to it.

 

[CDrew]

May give this a whirl next season. Do you add the pressed skins in with your reds must for additional extraction/tannins?

I did in 2019, but for 2020 I just disposed of the pressed skins. I wasn't sure it added anything and so for simplicity, I just pressed and went forward. So I guess for me in 2020, technically, it isn't even saigneé. I'm going to re-evaluate next year and will likely do a true saigneé again depending on the amount and quality of the grapes I get.

I didn't do any bottle carbonation or backsweetening.

I have to say for 2020 it already tastes great. In 6 months, I'm expecting it to be terrific.

 

[Ajmassa]

May give this a whirl next season. Do you add the pressed skins in with your reds must for additional extraction/tannins?

Exactly The rosé technically is just a byproduct of — a technique called saigneé.

Saignée: A French term meaning literally "to bleed," saignée refers to the process of bleeding or pulling juice from a tank of red must that is just beginning fermentation. The goal is two-fold. First, the lightly-colored juice that is bled out of the tank produces a rosé. Second, the must remaining in the tank has a higher proportion of grape skins to juice; the resulting wine will be richer and more concentrated.

​

... Also, any preference for a fresh press rose' vs. a reconstituted skins rose'? Do you bottle with carbonation or some residual sugar for secondary in the bottle or stabilize before bottling? I know, so many questions, but I am remembering the chilled Gallo rose' from years past and it was delightful in its own right and had a bit of sparkle to it.

I learned recently that typically there is a small amount of co2 in commercial rosé - often not noticeable though. But really there’s no rules. We prefer dry rosé in my house. Dry, chilled, and no noticeable co2 I suppose.

 

[CDrew]

Regarding the saigneé; 2019 I pressed off the skins and tossed the skins back into the red fermentation. And since in the end, I was never super happy with that Mourvedré, that was one of the variables I was trying to eliminate this year. So for 2020 I pressed and let the skins go off to the compost pile (and I switched to Barbera grapes too).

I think @Ajmassa 's "saigneé de parking lot" version is the truer to technique method.

For next year, I want a method that never involves the skins-like a filter in the base of the fermentor and just draw out juice to make an authentic Saigneé. Maybe the PVC pipe with all the holes would work.

 

[Chuck Rairdan]

Exactly The rosé technically is just a byproduct of — a technique called saigneé.

Saignée: A French term meaning literally "to bleed," saignée refers to the process of bleeding or pulling juice from a tank of red must that is just beginning fermentation. The goal is two-fold. First, the lightly-colored juice that is bled out of the tank produces a rosé. Second, the must remaining in the tank has a higher proportion of grape skins to juice; the resulting wine will be richer and more concentrated.

​

I learned recently that typically there is a small amount of co2 in commercial rosé - often not noticeable though. But really there’s no rules. We prefer dry rosé in my house. Dry, chilled, and no noticeable co2 I suppose.

Thank you! I understand the Saignee process now, makes sense. I'm thinking I may try this with a locally sourced Malbec that has good up front character and dilute the juice a little to finish in the 12% range. Also, may try to retain some carbonation with a early 5-mic filtered bottling of a near dry rose. Thoughts?

 

[Ajmassa]

11/23 - 1.011
11/24 - 1.0105
11/26 - 1.008
11/27 - 1.007
11/29 - 1.007

slowing down now. I really don’t wanna make a starter. It’s a ton of work-low probability of working, and such a small amount of wine.

I may just have to add lysozyme to keep from going thru mlf while not preventing yeast from working.
Other than stirring and keeping temps up- any suggestions to help this finish dry are welcome.
It’s worth noting there’s also a 1/2gal jug fermenting which has been slightly faster than the carboy. That’s at 1.005.

 

[CDrew]

I would gamble on warmth. Heat that stuff up to 80F or more. I'd be getting a big healthy fermentation/starter going now, so that if you need it in 4-5 days it will be booming. Although, what you use for your starter? Can you still get a juice bucket at this late date?

Please post updates. Very interested to see what happens.

 

[Ajmassa]

I would gamble on warmth. Heat that stuff up to 80F or more. I'd be getting a big healthy fermentation/starter going now, so that if you need it in 4-5 days it will be booming. Although, what you use for your starter? Can you still get a juice bucket at this late date?

Please post updates. Very interested to see what happens.

Na No more juice buckets happenin for me. Plus I’d think the SG is already too low (and abv too high) for any potential for a successful starter. I have no idea what I would use though. Maybe just sugar into the wine. I’d risk a portion to try. Got a 1/2gal extra

-I have the pressed cab skins still. loaded with active yeast.
-I saved the yeast slurry/heavy lees from when I transferred the cab too. Given how slow things were moving all over I figured to save just in case.
-large packs of ec118 and maybe even some restart specific yeasts. Gotta look

Not sure if any of this stuff could be useful on the rosé at 1.007 tho. First I’m gonna figure out a way to move & heat it higher. Will give it a few days at 80° and monitor progress.

 

[Ajmassa]

I would gamble on warmth. Heat that stuff up to 80F or more. I'd be getting a big healthy fermentation/starter going now, so that if you need it in 4-5 days it will be booming. Although, what you use for your starter? Can you still get a juice bucket at this late date?

Please post updates. Very interested to see what happens.

It’s working. Trying to keep it mid 80’s° and keep from cooking it. I made a ghetto little “isolated chamber” for the carboys and space heater using some old towels. Function over fashion. Yesterday morning was at 1.007 for 48 hrs. Today it’s at 1.004-1/2. Jug is at 1.003.

hopefully I can get it under under 1.000 quickly because I don’t exactly love having the wine this hot or having this fire hazard for any longer than necessary. Still stirring it up daily too I figure whatever yeast or nutritious aspects remain in it there could only help being mixed into suspension, not hurt.

 

[CDrew]

Wow, some good news! I think you and @crushday are the last ones on the forum with an active fermentation from 2020. But you're not stuck so that is awesome news.

 

[Ajmassa]

Wow, some good news! I think you and @crushday are the last ones on the forum with an active fermentation from 2020. But you're not stuck so that is awesome news.

@stickman hasn’t even started yet!

 

[Ajmassa]

Wtf I swear this rosé ferment is like my wife. Doesn’t care what I want or how I try convincing to do something —- just gonna do what they wanna do, when they want, & how they want. And when I say I’m boss, all I get back is a shit-eating grin.

10/26 - crush
10/27 - yeast at 1.105
11/23 - 1.011
11/24 - 1.0105
11/26 - 1.008
11/27 - 1.007
11/29 - 1.007
11/30 - heated to mid 80’s 1.004-1/2
12/1 - 1.003
12/2 - 1.0025
12/3 - 1.002

Again, Smaller jug is ahead & sorta gives me some foresight for the carboy— which is at 1.001 ish.

Gonna leave it alone and not check for a week. Will only run the heater occasionally now. Like after a big fight just gotta back off and let her come around on her own, giving as much time as she needs.

 

[Ajmassa]

Well it’s official. Rosé is stuck just short of dryness. She struggled the whole way but still was somehow able to power thru the majority of the sugar.

Time of death : 1.003 SG

too low sg/too high abv to realistically restart it to finish dry. Been there. Done that. On a 2017 Tuscan at 1.002. Ph adjustment. Rack. Lysozyme. Rack. Rice hulls. Step feeding a starter. Etc etc. It’s a whole lot of work for a very low probability of success. Plus this is such a small amount of wine. Haven’t used the heat pad or anything for about a week and it’s starting to darken up & clear nicely.

I learned recently that Washington state had an abnormally high amount of sluggish fermentations this year. To the point that even the pros had been contacting Scott’s Lab for advice. My red mountain cab was definitely sluggish. But with some wmt advice & a little extra tlc helped bring it to fully dry. The rosé however lacked a ton of those nutrients the cab had from no time on skins—- probably the main contributing factor.

It tastes great. Right on par with many commercial rosés I’ve had. Better actually. I just prefer dryer. Which when buying blind off the shelf dry rosé def aren’t the norm. But I’ve got some Malbec rosé dry as a bone I can blend it to help out. Putting both out in the shed for cold stabilization soon. First some lysozyme, so2, and racking. Confident it will be delicious.

In the pic here is Fall’s rosé on the left- and spring’s on the right for comparison.

 

[CDrew]

Sounds really good. Lysozyme is seriously easy to do. I mixed on a stir plate to avoid clumps and that works great. After that, sulfite to a pretty good level. Maybe 1.5 times protective levels. Are you going to Bentonite? I've got some on order so I'll be exploring that soon. I think a whole pound was under $10 and it uses just a gram or two per liter.

Your Malbec Rosé looks great as is. How does it taste?

 

[Ajmassa]

Sounds really good. Lysozyme is seriously easy to do. I mixed on a stir plate to avoid clumps and that works great. After that, sulfite to a pretty good level. Maybe 1.5 times protective levels. Are you going to Bentonite? I've got some on order so I'll be exploring that soon. I think a whole pound was under $10 and it uses just a gram or two per liter.

Your Malbec Rosé looks great as is. How does it taste?

the Malbec never got lysozyme- went thru mlf- yet is still on point. After CS I still wanna play with acid bench trials. I’ve got a funny feeling a touch of acid will improve it. Plus I just wanna tinker & find out ya know?

used lysozyme once 3 years ago. I just remember it being messy stuff. I will definitely have to read up as if it’s my 1st time. As far as clearing I’m just wingin it. No real plan. Bentonite was not on my radar though. Why specifically suggesting that? I did use it once before. Also messy lol. Still have the leftover. “Speedy Bentonite”. I’m hoping this clears well on it’s own without any additions. The Malbec rosé seemed to clear well. Idk.

I’ve also been thinking about using these rosé’s as an excuse to get myself a whole house filter system actually. Will cross that bridge when I get to it I guess.

 

[CDrew]

Ya-Only that lysozyme by reputation can contribute to protein haze in otherwise clear wines. The Bentonite supposedly prevents that. My plan is Lysozyme, and bentonite sometime when convenient before bottling. At this point, I'm only theoretical here. Will be bentonite savvy within the next month.

Last year I did add late tartaric acid to my Rosé and it was good. That Rosé is gone now so it worked.

For dissolving the Lysozyme, I put the water on the stir plate, and slowly added the lysozyme powder. No clumps and pretty clean.

 

[Boatboy24]

Regarding the Bentonite, I had protein haze on my 2019 Viognier and Petite Manseng - the Bentonite cleared 'em right up.