Orange Wine questions

[Big Port]

Hi all. I am about to start my first one gallon batch of wine and after reviewing a million different recipes that I want to try I have finally decided on onlyone.

I found it in Jack Keller’s web blog and have a couple questions that I am hoping someone here can help with. Below is the recipe and my questions below that.<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
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Orange Wine
This wine took a first place in the Fruit Wines (Dry) category at the San Antonio Regional Wine Guild's 2005 Spring Competition, so it is pretty decent.
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<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">6 lbs. very ripe or over-ripe oranges </LI>
<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">1 11-oz can Welch's 100% White Grape Juice frozen concentrate </LI>
<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">1-1/2 lb Turbinado Sugar (do not substitute brown sugar) </LI>
<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">water to make up a gallon </LI>
<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">1/8 tsp grape tannin </LI>
<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">1 tsp yeast nutrient </LI>
<LI =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">wine yeast </LI>[/list]
Put two quarts of water on to boil. Meanwhile, peel the oranges and remove any brown spots and all the white pith (it is bitter and will ruin the wine). Break the oranges into sections and remove all seeds (very important). Drop them in a juicer or a blender and liquefy (you may have to add a cup of water to the blender). Mix the juice or liquefied oranges with the sugar, tannin and yeast nutrient in primary. Add boiling water and stir well to dissolve the sugar. Add grape concentrate and additional water to make one gallon total must. Cover and set aside to cool. When cooled to room temperature, add yeast. Ferment 7-10 days and strain through a fine-meshed nylon straining bag, squeezing to extract juice from pulp. Transfer to secondary, top up if required and fit airlock. Rack every 30 days until not even a light dusting of lees settles on the bottom between rackings (3-4 times). Stabilize and sweeten to a specific gravity of 1.006. Wait 3 weeks to ensure fermentation does not restart and rack into bottles. Age (very important) 6 months to a year before tasting. We drank a 2-year old bottle recently that was to die for.
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Two things I notice that aren’t included in the recipe are Pectic Enzyme and Campden Tablets. I am assuming that since he calls for either juicing or to liquefy the fruit you don’t need the Pectic Enzyme to help extract any further juice? On to the Campden, I was under the impression that you always used either Campden or potassium metabisulfite. Another assumption here, since he says to add yeast after the mixture cools, I would guess that this is deliberate since your supposed to wait 12 hours after the addition of the Campden to pitch the yeast?? What about Campden during racking? Also, he doesn’t mention which type of yeast he used. After researching a bit I am thinking of using either the Latvin K1V-1116 or 1CV-D47. I may have answered some of my questions above with my assumptions but you know what they say about people who assume…………I just want this first batch to be at the very least drinkable, and for me that doesn’t take much.

Thanks in advance for any and all input.

 

[masta]

Big Port,


It appears you have done your research and good catch on the lack of pectic enzyme. Oranges do contain pectin and since you are using boiling water which sets pectin I would go ahead and add 1 tsp to the must after it cools then wait 12 hrs and pitch the yeast.


I would use the Lalvin K1V-1116 as no initial SG is noted in the recipe. I did a quick calculation of the oranges and sugar and came up with a SG of 1.088/ ABV of 11.78% and this does not include the sugar from the grape juice concentrate. The K1V-1116 will certainly ferment this wine dry since it's alcohol tolerance is ~18%.


Nocampden/K-meta was called for because the Welches White grape juice contains it already in a fairly high dose. I would also not add any later on when racking. Below is info from Welches site:


Do Welch's juice products contain preservatives?
Welch's Purple 100% Grape Juice and juice cocktails do not contain preservatives. Welch's 100% White Grape Juice, however, does contain the preservative potassium metabisulfite, which is added to prevent browning and maintain color. Welch's Sparkling Juice Cocktails do contain the preservatives sodium benzoate and potassium metabisulfite.


Keep us informed of your progress!

 

[Big Port]

Thanks Masta. I have been doing a lot of homework and am eager to get started. I will start a post and add pictures of my progress. Thanks again. Edited by: Big Port

 

[Waldo]

Sounds like a great recipe and a wine i think Iwould probablyenjoy Port. Will be following your progress on this one.


Will the grape juice have enough Meta to carry it right on through the stabalization stage too Masta or should it be added when stabalizing? Edited by: Waldo

 

[MedPretzel]

Hi!

Waldo, from my experience, no, it doesn't have enough. Don't forget you're stirring the must, racking and exposing your must to a bit of oxygen - and you want this at the beginning of your fermentation. The k-meta that masta mentioned is what was put so that the juice as it is intended to be used is stable.


It would be impossible for yeast to survive that amount of k-meta throughout fermentation and still have the k-meta "usable" for stabilization. You are adding k-meta to stabilize = prevent refermentation. Basically what I am saying is: if you had that much to "carry you over," you wouldn't have fermentation at all.

Hope this is understandable and helpful!





M.

 

[masta]

Hang on folks as there seems to be some conflicting info I just found regarding sulfite in the frozen white grape juice concentrate!


From Jack Keller's site:


"The name most associated with grape juice in America is Welch's. Welch's grape juice is either Concord (red) or Niagara (white). This juice is sulfited to prevent fermentation in the bottle and may be difficult to start fermenting, but it can be done. It is much easier to use Welch's 100% Grape Juice Frozen Concentrate, as it does not contain sulfites. However, the recipe below contains instructions for building up a fermentation that should overcome the sulfite problem."


This is conflicting to what is on Welches site as I posted earlier and from what Hal posted


"Hal Maulden wrote:

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I have done a couple of batches of Niagara and it is a decent white wine. I really not much of a white wine person, but this is okay and cheap. I have found that Niagara contains, when diluted about 100 ppm SO2. What ever you do, don't add more.


Hal</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE>


Hal was this the frozen concentrate or bottled white grape juice you tested?


Does anyone have a can in their freezer to check the ingredients?


Edited by: masta

 

[Joseph1]

Welch’s bottled Niagara and the frozen white grape juice concentrate contain sulfites. The bottled and frozen Concord concentrate donot contain sulfites.

I could not locate a reference indicating the amount of sulfite in a can of the frozen concentrate.

Metabisulfite is not necessary when preparing this Must because of the combined sanitizing effect of whatever sulfite is in the concentrate and the boiling water.

 

[MedPretzel]

Okay, at the risk of sounding very, very, very dumb... but here it goes:





Why couldn't you just stir the concentrate with the rest of the must when you add it to release the SO2? I've used this method with concentrate of all kinds, and it works. Am I missing something that is way over my head? If the can says "contains sulfites" I believe the can over a website, even if it isJack Keller (sorry Jack - I think you'd agree with me on this point). If it doesn't?Well,I think the problem can be more than solved by starting a fermentation without the addition of sulfites -- INITIALLY.


If you are boiling the water anyway, you're killing off most of the stuff that sulfite would kill as well.After the must hits 1.010 and you decide to transfer: That's when I would add the campden tablet!

But my question remains: am I missing something here?

 

[bilbo-in-maine]

I think Joseph and Martina have said much the same thing - preservative
in the juice already, in combination with boiling water, should provide a
fairly aseptic must to start with, hence no adding Campden initially.

Add an addtional step to Jack's recipe by allowing the must to sit 12
hours after mixing all ingredients, but before pitching the yeast. Stir it
really well, as Martina suggests, to get k-meta out of solution, have the
yeast started beforehand, using doses of the must at later intervals to get
it going so you can see that it will work with the must, and let 'er rip!

 

[masta]

No you are not missing anything at all it is just me over analyzing again. I just wanted to make sure Port wasn't getting the wrong info about the white grape juice containing sulfite, that is why I asked the question about someone looking at the ingredients on the can and requested Hal's info on testing of SO2 to make sure Jack's info was incorrect. (Mama's says don't believe everything you hear or read!)


Without having the means to test for sulfites I would also add some at stabilizing and along with sorbate which prevents re-fermentation after sweetening.


Keep us posted Port on your progress and sorry if we got off topic but sometimes clarification is needed to be sure!

 

[Hal Maulden]

In response to a request by Masta:


I have now made two batches of Welche's Niagara. In both case the sulfite has been out of site. The first batch was 150 ppm and the second was 120 ppm IN THE FINISHED WINE!!!!


I'm not sure about other Welche's products. I would assume that they add this to the white grape juice to stop browning. I contacted Welche's and told them about this. The only response I got back was some free coupons.


I'm not a white wine person, but this actually made some decent and very cheap, white wine.





Hal

 

[Big Port]

Started this wine tonight. Barely got my cherry to secondary and had to find another to make. Used clementines, real small, sweet and easy to peal. O.G. was 1.095 and used Latvin L1V-1116.

 

[bilbo-in-maine]

Good going Eric! Hope you have a digital camera and willingness to post
pics, that's always fun

Bill

 

[peterCooper]

ooh, clementine wine sounds delish... Recipe?

 

[bilbo-in-maine]

Peter - Recipe on first page of this thread

 

[Big Port]

The cap is very thick..maybe 2 inches but that still leaves me about a gallon below it. I have it covered with cheese cloth with a rubber band holding that on, is that a safe method?


Here is a pic of it after about 10 hours.

 

[PolishWineP]

We use a clean dishtowel with the string &amp; rubber band and the fermenter lid set on top. How many layers of cheese cloth?

 

[Big Port]

Just one layer....sounds like I should get more on there and the lid over that??

 

[bilbo-in-maine]

Eric - After 3-4 days keep the lid on pretty much permanently to protect
your CO2 layer from stray drafts. Once your SG is down around 1.02 think
about transfering to an airlocked vessel. You probably know all this, trying
to limit contact with oxygen. Keep up the good work!

Bill

 

[Big Port]

Okay, I will do that. Thanks for the advice.