Newbie Q: Starting at the beginning with using fruit

[cooltouch]

Okay, I've never made wine before, but I've d/l'd a few simple recipes from the Internet that I feel are good enough to get me started. Once I've got a few bottles under my belt, I'll be more interested in fine-tuning things.

So anyway, what got me started thinking about making wine most recently is the fact that I'd wasted about 10 bucks on a selection of fruit I bought at the local Super Grocery. I bought a couple of pounds of black grapes, a couple of pounds of plums and a couple of pounds of apples. One thing they all had in common was being rather bland, and the grapes skin was so harsh and bitter tasting that, even when I'd find a tasty one, I'd gotten so I couldn't stand the flavor of the skin anymore.

So it occurred to me that, rather than dump out this pile of fruit, why not crush it and make wine from it? Add sugar to it as necessary for flavor and something for the yeast to grow with. Now, I wouldn't doubt that there are purists among you who are horrified at the thought of mixing fruit together in a hodge-podge like this, but hey, I'm willing to give it a shot. What's the worst that could happen? I waste a few more bucks on some yeast and sugar?

Anyway, here's the question: what do you guys use to crush your fruit? And what sort of containers do you crush them in? I'm not quite willing to go scrub my feet and dance in my fruit just yet. I'm hoping I can find another, more appealing method.

I'm thinking my skinny little potato masher probably isn't up for the job. I have a blender and a Cuisinart, but I don't want to blend the stuff, I just want to crush it. And I don't own a juicer, either. I do have a large Kitchen Aid miker -- the heavy-duty one that you crank the bowl up and down with. Kitchen Aid actually makes a fruit and vegetable strainer for the mixer, but man-o-man, for the price they want for it, I could buy enough wine to keep me blotto'd for too long to think about. I was wondering if maybe the dough hook or the beater attachment might work, though. Probably not all that well.

I guess if all else fails, I could use the Cuisinart, liquify the fruit, then strain it through some muslin cloth or similar. That will work for the plums and apples, I suppose, but not the grapes. Too much of a chance of the skin flavor contaminating the juices. So I'll still need a crusher for them.

So, any ideas, suggestions, recommendations? Preferably something that doesn't involve spending more money?

 

[olusteebus]

I am not a seasoned wine maker but here is what I would do to get the juice out.


first, I hope you are making one gallon of wine. I would quarter the plums and apples and remove the seed(s). I would then freeze all the fruit together. Take a paint straining bag, put the fruit in it and use a half teaspoon of pectic enzyme and let the fruit thaw and let the fruit sit for a day. Add some water to about a gallon and follow a wine recipe for the rest.

You will need some equipment. What do you have?

 

[cooltouch]

I have -- ready for this? --- four empty plastic gallon jugs that used to house distilled water, a bag of balloons, and a whole lot of yeast. Besides the fruit and sugar, that is.

Where would one obtain "pectic enzyme"? I'm thinking my local Kroger probably doesn't carry it.

 

[Thig]

I don't want to discourage you but I also don't want your first attempt to turn you off from making wine. You really need to read some of the tutorials first. As a general rule, if the fruit is not good the wine will not be good. You can't take bland or bad tasting fruit and end up with good tasting wine. It sounds like you are also probably going to use bread yeast which does not end up with good wine. As long as you go into this looking at it as a learning experience you will probably gain some knowledge that will help on your next real try.

 

[cooltouch]

Hey Thig, you guessed it. I'm not hoping for anything even worth the designation "vintage" associated with it. I'm just more interested in getting the process going. Yeah, I agree about the fruit and all. Same thing is true for wine used for cooking, as you no doubt know. If it ain't good wine, why on earth would you want to cook with it? But the fruit isn't bad tasting. It's just a bit on the bland side is all. The grapes actually taste pretty good. It's just the skin flavor that I can't get over. So my attitude is to use some sugar for a "flavoring additive," as well as yeast food, and see how that goes.

You're right about the yeast, too: I do plan to use baker's yeast. I googled the topic of making wine from baker's yeast and got hits on a few interesting articles. The upshot appears to be that you gotta plan on using more than you would otherwise, and that often it had a stronger flavor than wine made from "traditional" yeast.

A few years ago, just for grins and giggles, I took a bottle of grape juice that had been sitting in the bottom of our pantry for months, it was about a gallon as I dimly recall, and dumped a couple of packets of Fleishman's yeast into it, then rubberbanded a surgical glove to the top. I let it sit until the glove was fully deflated, then decanted the results. Not bad, but not very much alcohol content -- probably around 4-5%. Which I'm guessing is because I didn't add any sugar to the juice.

You know, I enjoy baking as well. But I just don't get to do enough of it. And meanwhile, I've got this unopened 2 lb. brick of vacuum-packed Red Star active dry (compressed) yeast that I've just gotta do something with. It's been bugging me, just sitting there, whispering to me about its untapped potential. So, I'm thinking that if I can use it for wine, it will get gone a lot faster than if I try to use it for baked goods. Necessity being the mother of invention and all, I plan to do some serious wine-making attempts with this Red Star yeast.

BTW, during my google searches, I also came across a thread on this subject right here -- not particularly surprising, I would think -- and the responses were positive enough to get me going in that direction.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/bakers-yeast-10127/

Still need to figure out how to crush grapes though. Hey! I just remembered, I've got an old-timey meat grinder in storage. You know, the kind you clamp down to your kitchen counter that has a big crank on it and a press section? I wonder if that'd work . . . off to my storage barn to go take a look.

 

[Tom_S]

I don't want to discourage you either, but it sounds like this batch is headed for disaster.

If you don't like the taste of the grape skins, you won't like the taste of your wine because the skins will impart a lot of tannins to the wine. It all depends on how you process the fruit, because unless you plan on peeling each grape you'll end up with the grape skin flavor in the wine.

It's never really a good idea to use bread yeast for making wine. Wine yeast is inexpensive and readily available, so there's no good reason to use bread yeast. Bread yeast gives wine an off flavor which makes wine taste not so good. I speak from experience from my early years as a home wine maker.

If you don't know how much sugar is in your juice, you probably ought to get a hydrometer. Adding sugar blindly will make wine, but it will either make a weak wine or one that's way too sweet. A hydrometer is essential in wine making because when you use one you know exactly what your potential alcohol level is and how much sugar you need to add.

So I'd suggest getting a hydrometer and wine yeast from a wine making supply store. And while you're at it, maybe get some glass jugs to ferment in, and possibly some rubber stoppers and airlocks. The rubber gloves will work OK, but the airlocks are better. The glass jugs will also be better then milk jug type plastic jugs that it sounds like you're using. You could also get some pectic enzyme, and I'd also add some yeast nutrient to my shopping list. Yeast nutrient helps the wine yeast reproduce and every time I've used it, the yeast really take off and give vigorous fermentation. If the yeast are happy, they'll produce good wine. If they're stressed, they'll produce "hot" or bad alcohols.

Also on your shopping list should be some campden tablets or powdered potassium metabisulfite. If you plan on adding sugar at the end of fermentation to sweeten your wine, you'll need some potassium sorbate to keep the yeast from reproducing and fermenting out all the new sugar.

Lastly you'll need something to put the wine in when you're done. You'll likely need some bottles and corks. You can look for empty bottles on craigslist or freecycle, or save bottles from wines you buy. Order new corks from a wine making supply store. Never reuse old corks.

And of course if you have any questions feel free to ask here.

 

[Thig]

Michael let us known how it turns out and plan to stay around. Lot of good advice here from others much more experienced at making wine than I am.

 

[cooltouch]

Hey Thig, yeah I'll be sure to let y'all know, especially if Tom S's predictions are accurate. Personally I don't think I'm heading for disaster. Tom's advice is well-intentioned and no-doubt scrupulously accurate, but I am intentionally ignoring it as I try my first batches of wine. Why? Because the people who first fermented wine had none of the technology that he mentions, yet they managed somehow. I am more interested in starting at the absolute beginning, rather than arming myself with hundreds of dollars of equipment and supplies before I complete even my first batch. I am intentionally sort of "playing it stupid" if you will, just to see what comes of these winging-it experiences. I'm following a very basic recipe, using baker's yeast, fruit juices, and sugar only, that I found on the Internet and whose author claims produces a good tasting wine. Well, we'll see, won't we?

BTW, yesterday I went and dug out that device that I thought was a meat grinder from my storage, and guess what? It appears to be exactly what I was looking for. Shaped sort of like a giant garlic press, near as I can figure it is meant for squeezing juice out of fruit. So I got busy with it last night and crushed it all. It was a lot of work and the total yield was maybe two cups. Clearly not enough for my first batch, which I wanted to be a bit less than a gallon. So I went to the store and bought a half gallon of apple juice and a half gallon of grape juice, then added equal amounts of each to bring the level up to about 3/4 gallon.

Say Tom, I thought the same as you -- that the bitter flavor of the grape skin might contaminate the flavor of the grape juice. I was hoping that crushing the grapes rather than blending or liquifying them might help in this regard, and I was correct. I tasted the juice after the crush and it was quite sweet -- actually much sweeter than I'd expected -- and with just a trace of bitterness. I figured I could handle that little bit, so into the mixture it went.

Anyway, I went ahead and started a batch last night. We shall see what we shall see in a few weeks, won't we?

 

[dessertmaker]

Those people didn't have balloons either. If you're gonna go old school then why use latex?

 

[karrlot]

Glass jug, airlock, and yeast - less than $10.

If your not going to buy a hydrometer (less than $10) then make sure you are following a recipe that has been proven to work within the last ten years.

My thought is that i dont want to spend a years time to make wine and have it taste horrible just to save $20.

When i want to make grandmas cinnimon rolls i make them from scratch, but I am not going to cook them in a wood burning stove, i am going to use an electric oven where i can control the temp. It might work to cook them in the fireplace, but I dont want to invest that much time just to have them ruined.

 

[winemaker_3352]

I would use this as a learning process for you - get the basics under your belt - get comfortable with the process.

I would recommend getting a few items from a supply store though.

Hydrometer
acid test kit
straining bags (paint bags from local home depot or lowe's works just fine)
airlock and drilled bung
primary (food grade bucket works from a local bakery)
secondary (glass jugs work best)


as far as crushing goes - i use a crusher.

But you can use a couple buckets to achieve this.

Here is the DIY bucket press designed by a fellow member on the forum.

http://wijnmaker.blogspot.com/2010/03/emmerpers-bucketpress.html

 

[cooltouch]

Well, you have to balance the amount of time you're willing to invest against the amount of money you're willing to invest. You guys are making your points about doing things the accepted way, okay? But as I wrote above, I did try this once before using grape juice and the result was a surprisingly flavorful wine. Didn't have much of an alcoholic kick to speak of, but then I didn't add any sugar to that batch, either. And believe me, I wouldn't be wasting my time if I didn't think I had a fair chance of success. I did research the topic, after all, and found more positive reports than I found negative ones.

There are a a few brewer's and wine maker's suppliers in town and, once I've gotten a better idea of what I can't live without, I'll go pay them a visit. In the mean time, I plan to just have a bit of fun. If this batch comes out awful, well, I've wasted maybe five bucks and the time it took to crush all that fruit. I have a "Mr. Beer" brewer's kit that I bought, complete and unused, at a yard sale years ago -- and I've never done anything with it. I just took a look at what all comes with it, and it has an airlock, so I've got one of those, at least. Only problem is it's meant to fit the kit's 6-gallon size container's lid. Dunno if I can adapt the airlock to anything else. But hey, what's wrong with using balloons? Far as that goes, I've read of folks who use their Mr. Beer kits for making wine, but in my case, it's a big kit, so I'll wind up with a lot of wine if I fill it up all the way. But I can order a smaller 2-gallon size container for "only" $10, so there's that.

 

[cooltouch]

Well, a few weeks have gone by since I mixed up my Frankenstein batch of fruit juices, sugar, and baker's yeast. Today, I decided to decant a portion and give it a taste test.

First off, you guys need to understand that I am not a connoisseur. When I buy wine, typically I gravitate toward the 1.5L bottles of reds that sell for seven or eight bucks. Some brands are pretty good, some are not. Seems like Inglenook makes a decent selection, so I usually buy their Cabernet or Merlot. I find that, once it's had a chance to air out some, it tastes just fine. So anyway, that's where my palate is coming from.

As for my wine, its flavor was complex and rather unusual after I first decanted it. Leaving it in the glass to air out for a while, it settles down to its true flavor, which in retrospect, I'd have to say is to be expected. This wine is composed almost half-and-half of grape and apple juices, with a little plum thrown in. The taste is rather dry and tastes as if it were about half a dry red and half hard apple cider. I don't have a hydrometer so I don't know the alcoholic content, but judging by the buzz I got from drinking a glass, I'd say the ABV is somewhere around 10-12%.

I am calling this experiment a success mostly because it resulted in a drinkable wine. It may not be the best, but it's certainly not the worst. I've paid good money for wines that tasted much worse than this batch does.

Next, I want to try a single fruit wine. I'll start with grapes, since they are the basis of almost all wines. But with my next batch, I will add more sugar and see what happens. I prefer wines that are just a bit sweeter than this batch -- say the difference between a Cab and a Merlot. But I want to continue experimenting with baker's yeast. I still have several packets of yeast left, but I also have a vacuum-packed 2-lb brick of Red Star active dry yeast (intended for "food service") that I want to do something with.

Now, I have a question. For those of you who have experience using balloons, tell me, how long do yours stay inflated? With mine, the balloon began to deflate after about 4 or 5 days. This seemed to be too soon, I thought, but it's obvious now that it was long enough because the yeast did its job. Not knowing what to expect, I just left things alone. Although, after about a week, I removed the balloon and gave it a sniff. It smelled like wine, but I replaced the balloon and left things alone for a couple more weeks, just to be sure. I suspect this quick deflation time is because of the bakers yeast and that a vintner's yeast would have kept the balloon inflated longer, but this is just supposition at this point.

This first venture into the world of wine making has been fun, and is enough to fuel my desire to want to kick things up a notch or two. So now that I've proven to myself that I can do it, now I'm ready to start adding equipment and paraphernalia to my arsenal (arsenal? what arsenal?) so that I can start cranking out some really interesting vintages. It is at this point where I'll take a closer look at your above suggestions and implement them as time and budget allows.

 

[Thig]

You might find that it gets better with some age on it. If you like it now it will probably only get better. Most fruit wines takes at 6 months to a year of aging to really let the fruit flavor come through the alcohol.

I think it is possible the balloon could deflate in 5 days, most of the active fermentation was probably over by that time. I had an apple wine almost completely ferment dry in 2 days.

 

[Arne]

If it is too dry, put a little in a glass and add a bit of sugar to it. Suprise, a semisweet wine. Don't add the sugar to the gallon, tho, unless you have come up with the chemicals to stabalize it or it will try and referment. Good luck with it, Arne.