Hey...my arm is sore!

[cbwenger]

i think Lauri and i have the same problem, i am making a creshendo syrah kit... but if i understand her correctly, and speaking on my wine, the fermentation is complete, its just the degassing that seems to be never ending

 

[ljcjd]

cbwenger....you've made me laugh...I understand the surgery thing...I'm sweating way too much. I'm sure George will figure it out for us. I understood the vortex issue like you did ie: mix in one direction then the other in order to get the co2 out...on high then low then high etc. I even tried to use the drill without the rubber bung on to get more exposure to the air. I also get much more foam at the top of the carboy. Last night I got very concerned because the foam was actually seeping into the bung. I don't think I want my electric drill interacting with the liquid. Now on my kit directions it said in order for mywine to clear I had to stir up any "sediments or particals" for the fining process...soryy I'm at work with-out my instructions with me so I'm working off memory. I can't figure it out.

 

[ljcjd]

Yes, I'm done with the fermenting process....the de-gassing process is the problem.

 

[cbwenger]

thats how i read the directions also, i actually finished the clarifying stages and still have fizzy wine (28 days later...actually now 42 days later... and it cleared great... so i don't have sediment kicking around in mine since i already racked it... you're sediment will settle and get left behind next time you rack it also... so i wouldn't worry about that)... just this dag gone FOAM!!!! FOAM, and more FOAM!!!!!!

 

[ljcjd]

Last night my two dogs were siting next to me and my 88 year old father came into the kitchen and watched me drilling, setting the timer, waiting 15 minutes and drilling again. All three of them had this dumb-founded look on their faces....kind of like "has she finally totally flipped out???" I admit, I'm obsessed now. I will get rid of this foam...it will not get me Thanks for the laugh

 

[geocorn]

OK, I just got off the phone with LD Carlson who is my distributor for the WE kits. Here is the "official" recomendation:


1. Stir until the foam almost reaches the top of the carboy and stop.


2. Wait until the foam goes away and stir again. Once again, until the foam gets close to the top of the carboy.


3. Wait until the foam goes away and stir again. At this point, it should be taking longer and longer for you to create a lot of foam. If you have stirred for over 1 minute and the foam has not reached the top, stop anyway.


4. Keep repeating step 3 until you create less than 1/2 inch of foam. It seems it is virtually impossible to get rid of all of the foam. Everytime you stir you will get some foam. The objective to get rid of the majority of CO2, not necessarily all of the foam.


I hope this helps, but if anyone is unclear, please post your question.

 

[ljcjd]

Hi George, I have to tell you...I am not generating a small amount of foam. I'm talking the full 5-6 inches up to and into the bung in very little time (1 minuteor so +/-), I'll time it tonight just to keep you informed. I was going to lay off, cap it and not stir for a while but got involved in this conversation. Like I said, I'll time it tonight and let you know...Thanks

 

[AAASTINKIE]

I'm starting to wonder if the problem is CO2 or the power drill. I stirred my Sauvignon Blanc kit like the directions said too and maybe one extra time, but I never had any foam but maybe a few bubbles on the top of the wine. I just used a plastic paddle. My kit was ready to bottle on the 9th and I will get to it as soon as I can, maybe tomorrow, I guess I will taste it to see if I detect CO2 in it after I rack it to the bottling bucket.

 

[ljcjd]

AAA, please post you results. Tonight I'll start with the spoon and then go to the drill. Thanks Laurie

 

[cbwenger]

if you think your father and dogs looked at you funny, thats better than the look i get from my girlfriend... she won't come visit until i'm done degassing... its been a lonely 2 weeks... i'm the same too Lauri, it takes me about 20 seconds to fill it up with foam (we're not talking a small amount), and i started to wait until it settles, and 3-4 hours later its was still the same, but on the bright side, my drill battery finally dies after several hoursso iget togo to bed at night,maybe i should have invested in 2 dogs intead of the wine, they seem more manageable

 

[cbwenger]

i will say this... after two weeks of doing this... the wine is not nearly as fizzy, but still fizzy nonetheless

 

[masta]

Two weeks of degassing? You say the wine is fizzy can you explain this some more?


The wine will foam with vigorous stirring even if the dissolved CO2 is long gone.


I use a mix-stir and when I degas I stir for 1 or 2 mins and then let the foam settle and repeat this no more than 4 cycles. Getting a good vortex and reversing the direction of the drill helps force the gas out.


The wine can only hold a certain amount of dissolved CO2 at atmospheric pressure. The vigorous stirring is the motive that forces the CO2 out of solution.


It is quite possible that all the stirring is actually put air into the wineand this is causing the foaming.


My advice......stop stirring and let the wine settle for 2-3 weeks for fines to settle out and then take a taste.

 

[cbwenger]

that sounds like great advice.... it makes sense, because i have been stirring like crazy... if i have too much oxygen in it, should i add a metabisulphite, or anything else to prevent the oxygen from ruining the wine???

 

[masta]

I wouldn't add anything yet but I knew this question would come up so let me do some more research on this.....not sure if all the stirring will effect the amount of free SO2 enough to cause problems.

 

[Hippie]

I don't know. I don't really agree, but I am not disagreeing either. I am wondering how warm or cold the wine is. Another thang I know is that cb doesn't have a Fizz-X. That wine needs to be 74*F or close and a vortex needs to be created each time the wine is stirred, with an up and down motion added to it, or at least start dep, and pull it upwards. I am perplexed at the thought of stirring so much and still getting foam. I am leaning toward it is not degassed properly. I could be wrong.

 

[masta]

Here is some more advice from Tim Vandergrift and the key here is the fizzy puff not foam:


"Try puttin a small sample in a sealed jar, shake it like crazy, and see if it makes a fizzy 'puff' when you open the jar again. That's a good way to check for dissolved gas"

 

[masta]

ljcjd and cbwenger could you please let me know exactly which kit you are making and having trouble with degassing. I need to get info on what the free SO2 should be and then calculate how much sulfite you might want to add to bring it back up to the proper levels before bottling.

Unless you have a sulfite testing kit which would take the guess work out of this!

It is quite possible that the excessive stirring you both have been doing has removed up to 30 ppm of the free SO2....in this case you definitely would what to add more to protect the wine.

....relax we will get this figured out...

 

[cbwenger]

thanks masta... i'm using a creshendo santa ynez valley syrah kit... i pulled some out into a bottle so i could degass, and when i went to pour it back in a had a sneak sip (or 6 or 7) and it was good and flat... it had been in a bottle for 2 days, and my carboy was not topped off for those 2 days either... will any of that make a difference.... also with the bottle test, if it makes a puff sound when i open it, does that mean there is or is not CO2 in the wine (no puff sound is good right???)... Country wine, the temp is 68-70 and i would get a vortex within 5-10 seconds of mixing, as soon as a saw the vortex, i would reverse... and i think for some reason everytime Lauri and I would get close to the top it would fizz or foam like crazy... last night i followed Masta's directions, but did not bring the stir to the top of the carboy, just kept making vortexes and reversing... topped off and will check in 3 weeks

 

[masta]

Yes no puff when opening the bottle after shaking means no CO2 and it is good.


Pulling the stirrer to the top of the carboy I believe is the issue with creating foam....no need to pull it up at all. The stirring action is what makes the dissolved gas come out of solution so keep your stirrer at the bottom 1/3 of the carboy when stirring.


I will follow up with sulfite issue soon!

 

[Tim Vandergrift]

Just a quick redux of the stirring issue for my (Winexpert) kits:



<ul>
[*]If you've fermented at the right starting volume, the right
temperature, and you've achieved the recommended specific gravity
levels, then you'll be able to stir the wine to de-gas within the
time-frames specified in the instructions.


[*]If the wine was started at anything other than the full 6
US-gallons (23 litres) or it was fermented cooler than 68 F, or if your
gravity readings were not at or below the recommended levels when you
did the process, you will not experience consistent success.
[*]You only need to stir a Winexpert kit four times.


<ul>
[*]On day one, you have to beat the snot out of the must to mix it
properly. A good, arm-cracking one minute stir to froth it up and mix
the juice and water will get you off to a good start and a thorough
fermentation
[*]On fining/stabilising day, after you've double-checked the SG, then you can first stir the kit without adding anything--and without racking it off the sediment!</span>
(Unless it's a Crushendo kit, but that's covered in the
instructions--no racking for any other kit. If you choose to rack it,
you will not experience consistent results. This first stirring
will be to greatly de-gas the wine, prior to adding any of the fining
agents or stablisers. Beat the hell out of it, for one full minute. Use
a watch or clock--one minute is a lot</span>
longer than most people think. If you can scractch your head with your
stirring hand after that one minute, you haven't stirred hard enough.
It should be an all-out blizzard of effort that costs you all of your
strength, and you should see spots in front of your eyes (see why I
tell people to buy a drill-mounted stirring whip?)
[*]Add the sorbate and the sulphite, and stir again, for one full
minute. This time you may break one or two small bones in your stirring
arm, but don't slow down--if anything, stir harder.


[*]Add the fining agent and the F-Pack (if the kit has one) and
stir for one more full minute. Have the paramedics standing by with a
bag of ice to carry your stirring arm to the hospital where it can be
re-attached. Top up with water and call it a day.


[/list]
[/list]
Now, if you have fizzy wine after this regimen, you don't have a
stirring issue. You have eiither got an incomplete or ongoing
fermentation, or you're mistaking foam for fizz, or you may have an
inicipient lactic acid bacterial infection that is making a bit of CO2
in the wine.



The amount of stirring described will reduce SO2 slightly in the kit:
however, the amount it is reduced by is minimal, because rather than
uptaking oxygen during this process, the wine out-gasses CO2, which
actually scrubs some of the oxygen out of the wine.



If you stir at a time when the wine is not saturated with CO2, you may
experience reduced SO2 and potentially expose the wine to oxidation.
But then, why are you stirring wine if it's not fizzy?



Hope this helps outl



Tim Vandergrift

Technical Services Manager, Winexpert Limited.