Fixing A Thin Norton

[smcalli1]

I have two carboys of Norton that have been aging since September. I used WYeast Bordeaux on one and WYeast Chateau Red on the other. A friend had Norton Grapes from the same vineyard, used WYeast Zinfandel on his and his turned out great. Mine, on the other hand, has good Norton flavors but feels thin in the mouth. Any ideas what might have happened? Any way to improve the mouthfeel? Thanks.

 

[winemaker_3352]

Hard to tell . different yeasts can increase complexity - longer exposure to the skins can help the mouthfeel - did he do an MLF or any sort of sur lee or battonage?

 

[smcalli1]

Surprisingly, mine was on the skins for a week longer. Odd.

 

[smcalli1]

Also, neither of us did an MLF.

 

[winemaker_3352]

How much nutrients did you each of you use and what kind?

Add any tannins - if so what kind?

Any oak??

 

[smcalli1]

No nutrients. I added oak during secondary fermentation. He added several weeks after. No other tannins but oak, the skins and seeds.

 

[winemaker_3352]

No nutrients. I added oak during secondary fermentation. He added several weeks after. No other tannins but oak, the skins and seeds.

Did you both use the same kind of oak?

Did you both use the same grapes per gallon ratio?

 

[smcalli1]

We both used the same oak. I oaked a little longer than he did. Something that might be significant is that his 200 lbs of crushed grapes went through primary fermentation in a single barrel while mine was equally divided between 6.5 gal buckets.

 

[winemaker_3352]

So he had more skins to juice contact ration as well as the added oak from the barrel.

That could be it..

Try adding some Tan Cor and maybe some more oak if it does not taste to overbearing...

 

[robie]

Fermenting in a barrel is not going to make the difference you have outlined. Skin time and skin-to-juice ratio will have made a huge difference, though.

However, aging in a barrel will make all the difference in the world. It will concentrate the wine by allowing some of the water to evaporate out, thus thickening the wine in mouth-feel and color depth. You will have to be prepared to top off the barrels with other sources of Norton.

 

[smcalli1]

Winemaker and Robie, thanks. I think the wine to skin contact ration was different. After pressing, I ended up with about 15 gallons of juice. He had a little over 12. After further rackings, he got 45 bottles of wine. I'm going to end up with around 60. I don't have a barrel yet so I'll probably try the Tan Cor first.

 

[robie]

Winemaker and Robie, thanks. I think the wine to skin contact ration was different. After pressing, I ended up with about 15 gallons of juice. He had a little over 12. After further rackings, he got 45 bottles of wine. I'm going to end up with around 60. I don't have a barrel yet so I'll probably try the Tan Cor first.

That wine being a Norton is likely already loaded with tannins. The Tan Cor will add even more, extending your required aging time. I would hold off bottling for now and wait until you can get a barrel. You can run each through the same 6-gallon barrel multiple times and achieve some really outstanding results.

There is nothing better than a really good Norton. Treat it well and you will be well rewarded!!

 

[smcalli1]

That wine being a Norton is likely already loaded with tannins. The Tan Cor will add even more, extending your required aging time. I would hold off bottling for now and wait until you can get a barrel. You can run each through the same 6-gallon barrel multiple times and achieve some really outstanding results.

There is nothing better than a really good Norton. Treat it well and you will be well rewarded!!

Thanks, Robie. I'll take your advice. And I wholeheartedly agree . . . I love Nortons.

 

[saddlebronze]

Great thread, learned a lot from just lurking on this one! Gotta love those Nortons!

 

[winemaker_3352]

Yeah - IMO - Norton is probably one of the most complex grapes to work with to get a good norton.

But we Missourians love a challenge!!

I have not done a norton yet - but have plans to make some next fall...

 

[smcalli1]

I'm going to try Nortons again next year. I found a place in IL on the other side of the river from St Louis that sold me crushed and de-stemmed grapes, with no chemicals or yeast, at a very reasonable price. But I'm always on the lookout for other sources. I'd like to do up to 400 lbs of Norton and 200 lbs of Chambourcin next fall. Hopefully by then I'll have more toys (testing equipment and larger primary fermenters) and will be able to see and react to problems if they develop.

 

[winemaker_3352]

I'm going to try Nortons again next year. I found a place in IL on the other side of the river from St Louis that sold me crushed and de-stemmed grapes, with no chemicals or yeast, at a very reasonable price. But I'm always on the lookout for other sources. I'd like to do up to 400 lbs of Norton and 200 lbs of Chambourcin next fall. Hopefully by then I'll have more toys (testing equipment and larger primary fermenters) and will be able to see and react to problems if they develop.

Yeah I will as well - will let you know if find a source...