Beginner Question

[Chopper]

My bro-in-law and I are new to winemaking. We both made our first batch of wine from a complete juice kit, and now we’re ready to try making fruit wine from scratch. Of course we’ve been reading a lot on the internet, and talking to all our acquaintences who happen to make wine.
<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
My bro-in-law ran into one guy who told him some things that seem contrary to everything we’ve read on the internet. Specifically, this guy told him:

1. The only chemicals/additives truly needed in winemaking are yeast and yeast nutrient. All the other chemicals serve no purpose other than to negatively alter the taste of the wine. This includes campden tablets, acid blend, yeast energizer, and all the chemicals used in stabilizing and fining.


2. Aging a wine does very little, if anything, to alter the taste of the wine. The taste of the wine after “proper aging” will pretty much be same as when fermentation was complete.


I can just imagine the responses I’m gonna get. Sounds to me like this guy has cut too many corners trying to find an easy way to make wine. But being a new winemaker, I wanted to ask if there’s any truth to these things.

BTW, I’ve tasted the wine this guy makes, and its alcohol content is so high that it dominates the taste.

 

[gaudet]

Considering I am only 7 months into this hobby obsession, I can tell you for certain that aging makes a difference in taste. I have been tasting bottles of my first batch of fruit wine (blackberry) and will tell you that you will notice major changes in taste given enough time. I bottled this blackberry back in August. I will try to save 5 bottles to age over 2 years to see how it turns out. It develops flavors and the alcohol (which was pretty strong at the beginning) goes to the background. As far as the additions of chemicals I think that they do lend to the taste somewhat (in the early stages), but most of them dissipate with time as the true flavors of the wine develop.

The flavor of my blackberry post fermentation was definitely not the same as it is now. You can ask my wife. She didn't like it initially, but now thinks its got great flavor.

Now the fining agents are probably the only thing that might not really be needed ever (if we all had the patience of Jobe). But I know I am not that patient.

Stick with what you learn here, and you will make some pretty good stuff.

 

[vcasey]

</font>
BTW, I’ve tasted the wine this guy makes, and its alcohol content is so high that it dominates the taste.</font>

I think that says it all. Follow the advice you get here and you can't go wrong.
VPC

 

[grapeman]

Chopper I will give you one bit of advice. DO NOT listen to that guy unless you want to increase your chances of making aBAD wine. There is a reason why most advice is given the way it is- it works. If you rely on luck, your luck is bound to run out and you will get some really nasty wine. I could go into detail about why you should use each addititve, but if you get the February/March WineMake Magazine, you will find an article written by Tim Vandergrift explaining the rationale of each additive and what can happen without it.


Good luck with your first batch of fruit wine. What are you going to make?

 

[reisjdmd]

chopper


i know i'm going to get flamed; i already havemy asbestos underwear on.but, i can trace my peasant family history of vineyards and home-made wine back to the 1720's in germany. they always, 100% of the time, made a decent white everyday drinking table wine using nothing but crushed grapes and wild yeast. absolutely nothing else. all tools and barrels were cleaned using only soap and water. all testing was done by taste. that's almost 300 years experience.
as for myself, my grandfather and i used to go to the produce wholesalers in our city. he bought cases of grapes that were no longer suitable for the grocery stores; they were wrinkled and moldy, and very, very cheap. we crused them and let them sit until fermented and then transferred to a clean barrel. always theresult was a light crystal clear chablis type table wine.


this year my wife and i made our first batch of wine from our vineyard; frontenac and concord. i screwed around with the glucosemeter and pH meter and acid test kit. in hindsight, all i had to do was watch the japanese beetles and the racoons. they know when the grapes are ripe.
as for acid, when i followed the directions for addition,i do not think i improved the taste of the must at all. it is clarifying beautifully.


i have 10 years experience making wine and beer from kits and concentrates. i have never sterilized anything; only soap and water. never any spoilage. i use wooden spoons exclusively [oh no!].


one dislaimer: the folks in the old country did do one artificial thing. after cleaning the barrels with soap and water they did place the smoke from a burning sulfur stick into the barrel to sanitize it for next year.


i firmly belive that my own experience and that of my ancestors shows that a decent reproducible everyday wine can be made without all of the stuff we are told we have to add, and without allof the things we are told we have to worry about.


one final thought: archeologists tell us that winemaking goes back at least 8,000-9,000 years. that means people in the stone age were doing this. it is not rocket science. i think people want to make it more complicated than it really has to be. obviously, i agree with your friend.chemicals only increase the chance of getting a slightly unpleasant tasting wine, lke the cheap store bought kind.


disclaimer: i am talking abouteveryday tablewine, not finechateau lafitte!

 

[grapeman]

No need to worry about getting flack from me Reis. I also agree that given proper conditions you can make a nice wine from minimal additions. I just think that new winemakers increase their chances of making a better wine with a few proper additions to lessen the risk of spoilage.


Yeasts - they are native almost everywhere. The problem is that here in the New World - as opposed to Europe, the majority of native yeasts are bread yeasts which are weaker than the wine yeasts of Europe. They can die out sooner leaving the alcohol level weaker and more prone to infections such as acetobacter.


Your relatives did not use sanitizers- they only burned sulfur sticks in the barrels. Burning sulfur produces S02 gases- the same thing as potassium metabisulfite produces. Most of us don't have the luxury of having barrels handy to use, so we rely on glass carboys and cheap alternatives to sulfur sticks.


Wooden spoons- if kept dry and clean these spoons remain fairly sterile. Wood has natural bacterial inhibitors in it and as long as they aren't dirty they won't multiply bacteria.


Testing and additives - I like you don't add acids to my grape wines- why? I grow hybrid grapes in a cold environment- similar to Germany. The wines produced are higher in acids so I don't need to add acid. Others that use fruit may need to. Not all fruit is high enough in acid content. Animals certainly do know when the fruit is ready and will clean it out if not covered. I use a refractometer for checking sugar content quickly. I do use a pH meter to monitor pH. I do check TA, because I don't want to need to use chemicals such as potassium bicarbonate to reduce acids. I rely on cold stabilizing to drop a lot of acids. I also use malolactic bacteria to convert malic acid to a gentler acid.


So you can see I like to be cautious about protecting my wine, but I try not to go overboard with extra unneeded additions. I still think chopper is better off following the normal recommendations with his first batch of fruit wine (not grape).

 

[uavwmn]

Chopper, do not clean or sanitize your equipment, don't add anything but your yeast, throw it in a bottle and drink the next day.
Then please post your tasting results on how you enjoy that wine.

Then get a wine kit, follow directions, get some age on it and compare the two wines.

BTW, what wine are you going to start? And good luck!!

 

[Chopper]

Chopper I will give you one bit of advice. DO NOT listen to that guy unless you want to increase your chances of making aBAD wine. There is a reason why most advice is given the way it is- it works. If you rely on luck, your luck is bound to run out and you will get some really nasty wine. I could go into detail about why you should use each addititve, but if you get the February/March WineMake Magazine, you will find an article written by Tim Vandergrift explaining the rationale of each additive and what can happen without it.


Good luck with your first batch of fruit wine. What are you going to make?

Thanks.


I'm gonna get abatch of blueberry started this weekend. Then abatch of strawberry next weekend. And as soon as I can find some frozen blackberries, I'll get a batch of it going.

 

[whino-wino]

All fruits are different (duh!). Acid content, sugar content and nutrients all vary from fruit to fruit and even from cultivar to cultivar. Many, if not most fruits, lack the acid needed to keep the yeast happy during fermentation and also to make a good flavored final product. Acid blend is not always needed, but when making fruit wines it is more often than not. Some additives, like pectic enzyme, are needed in certain wines as well or you will never, ever get it to clear. Fruits that are high in pectin will leave the wine “hazy” if pectic enzymes are not used. Others are purely optional, like Ascorbic Acid, which simply keeps wines from browning and is more for aesthetics than any other reason (apple wine is a good example).<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

Now if you’re talking making wine from Vinefera grapes (wine grapes) you won’t need many, if any, of these additives. Like appleman pointed out though, the yeast strains in North America are not going to produce the alcohol content that the European strains will. With this in mind, the wild yeasts on these grapes will need to be killed off before introducing another strain and here’s where sulfites may come in handy.









Aging wines also does greatly affect the taste. I've made fruit wines that I wanted to throw out right away but ended up being very good after some time in the bottle. Wines will hit a "peak" age and then the quality of the wine will decline after that. Reds generally age better than whites. I think the high alcohol content that this friend has in his wines probably negates any positive effect that age would have though.





I have no doubt you could make a superb wine using the right ingredients without adding anything but like appleman pointed out, every now and thenyour luck will run out and you will have a bad batch. Bad batches don't necessarily have to just taste bad, some can send you to the emergency room.

 

[suprasteve]

as far as part #2, my limited experience will confirm that aging is good for the wine: taste something straight from the primary, then taste the same thing after only a month in the secondary and i guarantee there's going to be a definitive difference in taste for the better. Maybe the majority of the difference at that early stage is the dead yeasts falling out of suspension, I don't really know, but whatever the reason even a little bit of age does a lot for the taste

 

[Waldo]

I would add to all this the fact that commercial wineries are in it for the money and why in the heck would they go the trouble of aging their wines, sometimes for years, in barrels if aging adds no benifit. Heck, lets get it in the bottle and get it sold quickly !!!!

 

[Rocky_Top]

Ok ..... I am sure that you can make a great wine without all those terrible chemicals. All that you need is the knowlege patients and dedication of a monk or an entire extended famaily whos lives depend on the income of the wine. They had 300 years or more using the same tools and ingredients. We can not even get the same stuff two years in a row. Andthey did use chemicals ( lemon, lie, charcoal, sulfer, ect) They had books of records that go back the 300 years to keep and improvethe family wine............ I hear people say "I do it the old fashion way" ......Are you saying that you just throw everything together and hope for the best?-- Because that is not the old fashion way.


You cancarve a 50 pound canoe out of a tree trunk by hand with a rock that will hold 3 people nicely.......Wouldyou care to have a go at it? All it takes is knowedge, hard workand dedication.

 

[gaudet]

Hey Waldo,

Glad to see that your power is still on. Also you need to wipe that bit of sarcasm off your lip ...... Its on the left side

 

[AlFulchino]

"i know i'm going to get flamed; i already have my asbestos underwear on. but, i can trace my peasant family history of vineyards and home-made wine back to the 1720's in germany. they always, 100% of the time, made a decent white everyday drinking table wine using nothing but crushed grapes and wild yeast. absolutely nothing else. all tools and barrels were cleaned using only soap and water. all testing was done by taste. that's almost 300 years experience."

***al - questions...if you went to a wine store today, would you be looking to purchase a 'decent white' or something better? if you are making wine today, are you intending on making a passable decent wine or something better?...how long will it age?....no one here doubts you can make a decent wine by following the basic rules and adding nothing...but the wine made in the old days was 9 times out of ten made to drink within the year so it only needed the basic rules of winemaking....your peasant relatives often did not have temperature thermometer at their disposal to know the inside temperature of a turkey in the oven...does your wife or you throw way the thermometer? thank goodness restaraunts have legal tempertaure requirements to follow!...do you go without it today? or does it help you? here is another question...do you think that your "peasant" relatives or *my* peasant relatives would not have enjoyed having a decent and affordable sanitizer at their disposal? mine would have...as for your having asbestos underwear...it is a statement of itself that you already say you own a pair. ***

as for myself, my grandfather and i used to go to the produce wholesalers in our city. he bought cases of grapes that were no longer suitable for the grocery stores; they were wrinkled and moldy, and very, very cheap. we crused them and let them sit until fermented and then transferred to a clean barrel. always the result was a light crystal clear chablis type table wine.

***al - same here as far as sharing an experience w my grandfather....but as far as the wrinkled grapes...did he do that because of price or because he knew that water had evaporated out of them thus making the brix higher...so you see the point may not be that it didnt matter what grapes he was buying as *why* he chose them...I have never heard anyone here ever ever ever say you could not make wine without using some modern day techniques..i think it was presumptuous and somewhat pre-judgmental of the group here that your view would be attacked....i believe i can assert something about this group here....i am not speaking on their behalf but i am speaking in terms of what I think about them...this group is interested in one thing...making good wine and accepting what the next person has to teach them and they are not indiscriminate flame throwers at your asbestos underwear....***

this year my wife and i made our first batch of wine from our vineyard; frontenac and concord. i screwed around with the glucosemeter and pH meter and acid test kit. in hindsight, all i had to do was watch the japanese beetles and the racoons. they know when the grapes are ripe.
as for acid, when i followed the directions for addition, i do not think i improved the taste of the must at all. it is clarifying beautifully.

***al - why did you attempt reading directions if your way already worked? just curious......other than that i am at a loss as to why i would wait to see raccons think my 14 varieties are ready when it is much more pleasurable and accurate to walk your vine rows, pull some grapes for taste and for the refractomter...your entire post took a major step back in its value with this one paragraph***

i have 10 years experience making wine and beer from kits and concentrates. i have never sterilized anything; only soap and water. never any spoilage. i use wooden spoons exclusively [oh no!].

***al - you see....this really highlights the need for that underwear...you start out by stating you are ready for attacks (like your gonna be a real victim) when the truth is this...you projected your own attacks onto others and then stepped back and said you needed to have your armor on...my apologies to the fine women here but what you did really displays what is bad in many men...when they adopt a feminine spirit and play games like this. I dont know anyone here who has ever begrudged you your not using k meta or any other so called newer approaches (show me where you were attacked and you did not instigate it first and then i will understand...at least i have never seen anyone attack you...in fact if you can make a really good wine your way, i say God bless you.....further i want to know something.....do you extend your hands off approach to your vines? what do you do when those jap beetles get out of hand..what do you do for botrytis, Pm and DM, anthracnose? grape cane girdler? I am listening ...and what about your kids...did you ever give them penicillin? i bet your peasant relatives would have loved to have that when some loved one desperately needed it..and by the way... ***

one dislaimer: the folks in the old country did do one artificial thing. after cleaning the barrels with soap and water they did place the smoke from a burning sulfur stick into the barrel to sanitize it for next year.

***al - they did what they had access to and so do we..i guess i am wondering why instead of writing a disclaimer you didnt just go back up and edit that first paragraph where you said "absolutely nothing else. all tools and barrels were cleaned using only soap and water." and by the way..what exactly is artifical about sulphur smoke? what makes it artifical? the same maker of the grapes made the sulphur..its actually just another NATURAL tool***


i firmly belive that my own experience and that of my ancestors shows that a decent reproducible everyday wine can be made without all of the stuff we are told we have to add, and without all of the things we are told we have to worry about.

***al - i believe this whole post has more to do with you making sure everyone knows you have a pedigree than it has to do with respecting other decent wine making people...there is not a person here who enjoys buying sanitizers..using sulfites etc...and i suspect that they know that if they clean really hard they will avoid MOST problems....i really believe you have to sit down and plan out what you want out of a wine...if its just to drink in one year then YES, your way can work each and every year.....but if you want your wine to consistently age well then you have to look at all the tools available to you, if you want color or acid reduction there are things that can be done....***

one final thought: archeologists tell us that winemaking goes back at least 8,000-9,000 years. that means people in the stone age were doing this. it is not rocket science. i think people want to make it more complicated than it really has to be. obviously, i agree with your friend. chemicals only increase the chance of getting a slightly unpleasant tasting wine, lke the cheap store bought kind.

***al - who here ever said it was rocket science?...and while so-called chemicals can increase the chance ( an important word) of getting a slightly unpleasant tasting wine...the lack of sanitizers for instance ALSO can increase the chance ( an important word) of getting a slightly unpleasant tasting wine....so just drink the wine fast and reduce the chances!***

disclaimer: i am talking about everyday table wine, not fine chateau lafitte!

***al- you have two too many disclaimers and qualifiers to have not have taken a step back and rethought what the real purpose and content of your posting was accomplishing and what it really was saying and inferring. Every time i read further on you add yet another disclaimer....it could have been this simple...ditch all the attack stuff and just say this...*for everyday table wine, Chopper, my family for three hundred years used nothing but some sulphur and we made it ok..personally i see no need for doing anything but keeping it basic*...lastly i like to make my wine as basic as possible too...but i will simply counter your post by saying to Chopper that he take one step at a time and be ready for some failures in the wine's POTENTIAL without using some of today's tools...IF he finds that acceptable and makes a quick good drinking wine then he has achieved what he intended..if he wants better color extraction...better acid levels..better aging....then bit by bit and step by step he should read and practice what he needs to achieve the best wine he is seeking*

 

[Rocky_Top]

My disclaimer:
I am very opinionated

.My best quality is that I am stubborn.

I had to take a sych test to get into a nuclear power plant. One of the questions on the test asked: Would you rather spend a day with someone that is polpite or intelligent. So far I am the only person to ever answer intelligent.

( What does that mean?

)


I wish well to everyone. If I ever offend anyone I am truly sorry.

I think that everyone is here to learn and have fun. These are the kindest people that I have ever found on line.