advice on yeast selection

[laxmaster1]

i will be making wine from grapes this year-cab sauv and chardonnay......i like my reds to have a lot of mouthfeel and plummy, jammy.......and my whites to be more rounded with tastes of butter, almonds, etc.....

any advice on yeast selection? please note i do add a nutrient (fermax) but i dont have the time or want to constantly be "coddling" my must. i guess thats why ive generally used premier cuvee in the past as it will basically power through anything........

for the whites -give me the rundown between rhone 4600, bm 10, ec1118, and premier cuvee (which I now use)

for the reds-i was thinking pasteur red or 212---ive heard "the best" is bm 45 but is it all that difficult???

any other suggestions owuld be great. thx very much,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Paul

 

[Boatboy24]

I used BM45 on the very first kit I ever did. Rehydrated with GoFerm, and added FermaidK after about 3 days. No issues for me as a complete rookie. Morewine has a great yeast pairing document and some good details on the yeasts they offer as far as nutrient requirements, etc.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf&pli=1

And I think they have great write ups on their individual yeasts as well:

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/21054/103218/Dry_Wine_Yeast_-_BM45_Brunello

 

[laxmaster1]

for chardonnay, can you directly compare the flavor profile differences between ec 1118 and premier cuvee (and.or bm10/rhone 4600)..it seems to me cuvee and 1118 (as well as other examples of yeasts) are basically the same yeast in different manufacturers packaging.......

i guess could someone do the same for red star pasteur red and rc 212 with respect to cab sauv?????? (and/or bm 45)

please feel free to make you own suggestions.im more interested in flavor profile differences and than actual fermentation conditions.....

the above links i have read before and are good, bu tthey fail to address what im specifically looking for-direct comparison of yeasts on similar wine must (i.e. the first link omits red star yteasts completely).....thx, Paul

 

[mmadmikes1]

1118 and Cuvee are the same strain. Different maker

 

[JohnT]

EC118 is a champagne yeast. Why not go with D47 (which I believe is a highly effective strain that I believe is has been used for French Chards with great success)?

 

[laxmaster1]

I ended up using the d47 for my chardonnay and the pasteur red for my cab sauv......my next question is should I/ at what stage should I encourage MLF???

SG were 1.09 for chard and 1.10 for cab sauv.............

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

i will be making wine from grapes this year-cab sauv and chardonnay......i like my reds to have a lot of mouthfeel and plummy, jammy.......and my whites to be more rounded with tastes of butter, almonds, etc.....

any advice on yeast selection? please note i do add a nutrient (fermax) but i dont have the time or want to constantly be "coddling" my must. i guess thats why ive generally used premier cuvee in the past as it will basically power through anything........

for the whites -give me the rundown between rhone 4600, bm 10, ec1118, and premier cuvee (which I now use)

for the reds-i was thinking pasteur red or 212---ive heard "the best" is bm 45 but is it all that difficult???

any other suggestions owuld be great. thx very much,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Paul

With that attitude I would really stay away from 212 and especially BM45. Pasteur Red is pretty bulletproof but offers little in sensory enhancement. Next time try BDX for the Cab Sav it is generally trouble free and it will make a difference in varietal expression. I would start MLF ASAP. I usually start at 2 brix but all the latest research indicates you can co ferment. The differences seem to be with the desire for a longer aging wine. If that is the case you can wait until 2 brix or after you press. If you are looking for a very buttery Chardonnay then the process is a bit more complicated.
Malvina

 

[laxmaster1]

malvina, can you expand on what you said about the relationship between "desire for a longer aging wine" and mlf...also, ive heard industry standard is not to start mlf for white wines and that mlf is for red wines only, is this true-or does mlf in whites help mute the crispness/freshness commonly found in younger whites? If its not too much to ask, also please expand on the process of making a chardonnay "buttery."

im not a lazy winemaker as my initial post may imply, i just dont have the time and more importantly, the knowledge, to try something (bm45) that takes a little more sophistication to pull off properly.........

Thx, Paul

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

NO I did not think you were lazy I just read your statement as you don't want to fiddle or worry and those 2 yeasts require a very attentive watch as to proper and staged nutrients and quick remediation for the development of off odors. BM 45 is a great yeast for Sangiovese but the BM 4x4 is as good without the associated problems. As far as whites they are generally put through MLF and doing so would reduce and mute the crispness and desired acid. But a Buttery Chard is entirely a different matter. I posted this a while back on the subject of making Buttery Chardonnay. The question was asked when he was doing the MLF on the Chardonnay what happened to the Buttery Flavors that were developing in this winemakers Chardonnay ....The problem as you state is due to the ML bugs when finished eating the Malic Acid turn to the Diacetyl ( the chemical in Buttery Microwave Popcorn) that was also produced during the conversion of the Malic to Lactic acid. Some methods to enhance the buttery flavors in Chardonnay are first to use a weakened amount of MLF culture so as to not have too many bugs burning through the Malic and then feasting on the Diacetyl. The second is to arrest the MLF before it is finished when you can detect the strong presence of Diacetyl and then using Lysozyme to stop the MLF. Kmeta is not the best way to stop it and no insurance it will stop in time to preserve the Diacetyl.

Btw my attitude is very clear I do not use yeasts that are problematic, there is no need to, as there are many other choices that do exactly the same thing without the problems. It is not a matter of sophistication to me it is common sense instead.

Sorry I forgot, the latest research of co fermenting is out and it appears all the worry warts are wrong. We have listened to years of hand wringing about this subject. There is no problem co fermenting and there are distinct advantages as well. The only caveat is the wines that were longer aging types ie: Cab Sav were better in the end result if they had the MLF done at the end of AF. But the differences are minor. Also there are comparisons to starting the MLF at 50& of the AF and there are minor differences there as well. So a lot of amateurs and early drinkers (people and wine) co fermeting is not a bad idea at all.

Malvina

 

[laxmaster1]

great thank you....then what is, in your opinion, the best way to detect adequate levels of diacetyl to then break off the mlf.??? and what was the problem or off-odor/taste that the winemnaker was referring to that was caused by the ML bugs "eating" all the diacetyl???

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

No there is no off order when that is occurring. Just the disappearance. I have no idea what his off odor was.
Lacking a convenient lab test for it, the best way is taste and smell. Or splitting up your batch into small amounts and stopping at different times and judging later for a benchmark.

I just realized LOL you say you are not lazy but you are Laxmaster. Master of lax? LOL
Malvina

 

[laxmaster1]

lax= lacrosse in my part of the country lol

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Butttery Chardonnay quality has nothing to do with lees aging or batonnage.
Malvina

 

[Deezil]

Yeah you're right, thats the MLF

I was thinking of the biscuity flavors that come along with the yeast flavors in the batonnage / lees aging

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Yeah you're right, thats the MLF

I was thinking of the biscuity flavors that come along with the yeast flavors in the batonnage / lees aging

And the use of Biolees as well add to the fullness and roundness and perceived sweetness.
Malvina