difference between lees and pomace (ref red wine making)

[perfection]

I would like to know the difference in these two terms.
In white wine i undertsand the pomace is free of (dead) yeast beads as the pressed wine is fermented
However, in red wine how would you differentiate the two? (i mean the gros lees which we rcj the wine off and the term pomace)

Can we call the subsequent sediment in barrels and rarely in bottles as lees or just sediment - i have heard of the term fine lees too

thanks

 

[robie]

I would like to know the difference in these two terms.
In white wine i undertsand the pomace is free of (dead) yeast beads as the pressed wine is fermented
However, in red wine how would you differentiate the two? (i mean the gros lees which we rcj the wine off and the term pomace)

Can we call the subsequent sediment in barrels and rarely in bottles as lees or just sediment - i have heard of the term fine lees too

thanks

(This is harder to explain than I first thought. Reds and whites are processed a little differently.)

One can refer to what goes into the fermenter for both reds and whites as must. Generally it is not referred to as pomace.

Gross lees can be thought of as containing heavier grape pieces/particles (grape matter). What falls to the bottom during primary fermentation, even for wine kits, I refer to as gross lees. Again, it is the heavier stuff.

Sediment is typically finer and is usually thought of more as dead yeast and the very fine grape particulates that, when in suspension, causes the wine to appear cloudy.

If a two stage fermentation is done, gross lees are removed at the end of primary fermentation. What falls out after that is sediment. More sediment falls out during the clearing process. It is this sediment that falls to the bottom leaving a wine clear.

Before fermenting most whites, the grapes are pressed, leaving juice and finer grape particles. This is still referred to as must. This is then allowed to settle. The juice is then racked off of what settles before fermentation is started on it.

Reds go into the fermenter with all the grape parts included. After fermentation slows, the wine is pressed and what is left still contains a lot of grape matter. What is pressed off is referred to as the skins, but it contains much more than just the skins. After that point, I consider what next falls out from the wine as gross lees; still a lot heavier than what I would call simply sediment. Just a matter of opinion I guess.

Anyway, once the wine is racked at the very end of fermentation, what will be left is wine, with lots of suspended sediment, which will fall out over time.

 

[perfection]

So what you are saying is pomace is what is left after pressing the white grape must
i.e pressing of unfermented white grape must (after free run) = pomace + press juice (for fermentation)

In the case of red wine pressing the fermented red grape must (after free run) = gross lees + press wine for bulk ageing

So what is red grape pomace? After all grappa uses either type - it must be the gross lees (the debris with the dead yeast beads and all)

Can you confirm this ?

 

[robie]

So what you are saying is pomace is what is left after pressing the white grape must
i.e pressing of unfermented white grape must (after free run) = pomace + press juice (for fermentation)

In the case of red wine pressing the fermented red grape must (after free run) = gross lees + press wine for bulk ageing

So what is red grape pomace? After all grappa uses either type - it must be the gross lees (the debris with the dead yeast beads and all)

Can you confirm this ?

Sounds like you are after a better understanding concerning how to make grappa. I can't help you there, other than to say, "Go to google and type 'what is grappa'". Grappa is a distilled grape product. It is illegal for this forum to have discussions concerning distillation.

If anyone on here can help, please utilize private emails to carry on further discussion.

Thanks you for helping us keep this forum on line.

 

[saramc]

Pomace , or marc (/ˈmɑrk/; from French marc [maʀ]), is the solid remains of grapes, olives, or other fruit after pressing for juice or oil. It contains the skins, pulp, seeds, and stems of the fruit. Grape pomace has traditionally been used to produce pomace brandy (such as grappa or zivania) and grape seed oil. Today, it is mostly used as fodder or fertilizer.
Read even more about POMACE at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomace

Per Jack Keller, http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/glossary.asp:Pomace: The residue of pressed pulp, skins and pips of apples, grapes or any fruit after pressing. When pressed under great pressure, a pomace cake or brick results. Pomace from appropriate fruit can be ameliorated with sugar, acid, water, and yeast nutrients (possibly acid and tannin will also be required) and a second wine can be made. The pomace provides enough flavor for a reduced volume of wine and should contain enough viable yeast (assuming the pulp was pressed after an initial period of fermentation) to continue fermentation.
**So as you can see per Jack's definition pomace can be fermented or unfermented residual, but the bottom line is it is just residual. In the past when I have discussed pomace I always tend to ask--is this before or after fermentation has started?

Also per Jack Keller, http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/glossary.asp:Lees: Deposits of yeast and other solids formed during fermentation. This sediment is usually separated from the wine by racking. Sometimes the wine is left in contact with the lees in an attempt to develop more flavor. See Autolysis and Sur Lie Aging

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Simply put Pomace is what is left over from pressing grapes. White or Red. If you intend to make Grappa from pomace you will make Crappy Grappa. The best grappa is made with good wine.
Malvina

 

[perfection]

Thanks all -
Sorry if my discussion seemed a bit out of sync but i am not after grappa or distrillation discussions - all i needed was to understand the terms lees and pomace as by products in the context of (fermented) wine making.

I now have googled some specialist pdf documents who say that

"Gross lees can be defined as the deposit that accumulates 24 hours after the wine has been moved" (post fermentation)".
"Fine lees would then be all the elements that remain in suspension for these 24 hours" (and wil settle out later)

So post red wine pressing the debris IS called rewd pomace and will have traces of yeast