WineXpert Carboy as primary

[physics911]

If I'm making a 6 gallon kit, which does not have skins, why am I supposed to use a 7.9 gallon primary? Why can't I just use a 6 gallon carboy?

Thank you,
Chris

 

[grapeman]

As your juice ferments, the yeast creates gas and foam and if you use the 6 gallon carboy, it will overflow or spew out the airlock. The pails aren't expensive. You need one.

 

[physics911]

I have several 7.9 gl primaries, all in use, which is why I'm asking about the carboys.
What if I use a blowoff tube like I do when I make beer?

 

[Deezil]

You could, I guess.

But the yeast need oxygen in the first half of fermentation, so that would be more difficult than it needed to be.

You'd almost certainly lose some volume of wine out of the blowoff tube, so you'd have to be okay with that too.

If it's a kit, just wait for a primary fermentation vessel to open up; it won't be the last time you'll need to be patient.

 

[physics911]

Deezil, that was what I was figuring; I would be depriving it of too much oxygen in the beginning.

I should have picked up another primary when I was at the LHBS today.
Oh well, I'll have two available next weekend.

I'll go make another batch of beer instead.

 

[Runningwolf]

Clean up is so much easier in a pail in addition to what others said.

 

[cmason1957]

You can always go to Home Depot or Lowes and buy a 10 gallon food grade plastic bucket. Much cheaper than the LHBS buckets.

 

[physics911]

I would like to go back to the O2 point, which I initially agreed with.
I'm questioning again why the carboy would matter with O2.
As soon as fermentation kicks off, all of the head-space is going to be filled with CO2, so why would it matter if I have 3" of head-space in a bucket, or virtually none in a carboy?
In every kit I've done so far, the airlock has started bubbling within 12 hours, which means CO2 is probably being produced within 8 or 10 hours; likely in some amount within a few hours. If this is true, then the O2 for the yeast must come from what is dissolved in the must, and not what exchanges from the head-space. If this is the case, I'm back to my question of, why can't I use a carboy with a blow-off tube?

Thank you,
Chris

 

[Simpsini]

Chris... Of course you can use a carboy with a blow-off tube. Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[Julie]

To try to keep this simple, when fermentation first starts yeast needs and looks for oxygen, if you have it in a container such as a carboy that the yeast is not getting enough oxygen, it is going to look for it, hence a volcano. Why would you want to take the chance? Fermentation containers are not that expensive.

 

[physics911]

Julie,
Please help me understand how is it not getting enough oxygen, and how is it searching for it.
The CO2 produced creates positive pressure, which is going to displace any O2 in the head-space, and with the lid snapped down and a water filled airlock, it is going to maintain that positive pressure unless the fermentation stops, there is a significant drop in temperature, or something like that. Where is the oxygen coming from, if not from what is dissolved in the must?

I'm very new to wine and beer making, but have a deep background in science, so "Why and how?", are very important questions for me.

Thank you,
Chris

 

[Just-a-Guy]

So go ahead, use the carboy. As Simspini said, let us know how it turns out.

 

[Deezil]

Julie,
Please help me understand how is it not getting enough oxygen, and how is it searching for it.
The CO2 produced creates positive pressure, which is going to displace any O2 in the head-space, and with the lid snapped down and a water filled airlock, it is going to maintain that positive pressure unless the fermentation stops, there is a significant drop in temperature, or something like that. Where is the oxygen coming from, if not from what is dissolved in the must?

I'm very new to wine and beer making, but have a deep background in science, so "Why and how?", are very important questions for me.

Thank you,
Chris

It's all in the life cycle of the yeast. During the beginning of fermentation, the yeast are multiplying and dividing.. This is mostly done in the lag phase, before we even see visual signs of fermentation begin, but successive generations of yeast are still born for a short period afterward. This process requires oxygen to be done healthily. When using a bucket, it's usually not covered with a snapped down lid and an airlock - that's the anaerobic portion, of second half of fermentation - but instead is covered loosely with a clean towel or t-shirt. This allows the CO to escape, the oxygen has room to get in, and the cap needs pushed down anyway. This physical action mixes oxygen into the must and displaces the CO2 blanket in the headspace.

If it's in a carboy, you'll need to put forth more effort to cause this exchange in the headspace in order to mix enough oxygen into the must to ensure proper cell division. This all aligns with yeast nutrients and how the yeast won't intake inorganic nitrogen past a certain point (~50% sugar break), the same point at which they basically stop all cell division, and shift into anaerobic fermentation, which is when you CAN add the snap down lid and airlock (if you can do so without a volcano).

So I think the biggest misunderstanding lies in that you're picturing this fermentation vessel (bucket) with a lid snapped down on it when really it's covered by a loosely draped towel

If the yeast don't have oxygen, they'll still try to divide but the youngest cells are the ones you rely on to finish the fermentation as the oldest cells - the ones actually in the packet you pitch - are mostly spent by then. So if all you have are unhealthy cells left, and they're running low on nutrient because fermentation is almost complete, you can bet you're gonna encounter H2S issues. Now it may not happen as often if you're running kits, but when you take that same theory and apply it to more uncommon yeasts and more difficult / less balanced musts, you'll run into frustration as you ruin a few batches before you decide to change your methods slightly. It's easier to learn and practice the methods for the best outcome than it is to try and overhaul your methods after you get stuck in your ways from kits,

 

[richmke]

I have several 7.9 gl primaries, all in use, which is why I'm asking about the carboys.

How many pails and carboys do you have?

5 days in a pail, and the rest in carboys.

I have one pail, and 10 carboys. One pail is all I need.

 

[richmke]

Julie,
Please help me understand how is it not getting enough oxygen, and how is it searching for it.

What Deezil said.

Basically, the yeast will multiply until the O2 is gone. At that point, what yeast you have is busy turning sugar to alcohol. Too small a colony, and it takes longer and bad things start to happen.

Through much trial and error, the optimal yeast colony seems to be when you allow O2 into the must for the first few days.

That's not to say that what you got from the initial growth can't do the job. A more consistent product is produced from letting the must breathe for the first few days.

 

[cmason1957]

And I will offer a method to use a carboy. I disagree somewhat with the others who say it must be open to the air. All kits I have ever seen say snap that lid down. They would not say that if it didn't work just fine.

I would fill the carboy to the neck, then remove about one gallon of the must. Put in jug well caped in the refrigerator. Now pitch the yeast. After initial part of fermentation is over add the removed must back in (maybe SG of 1.020 or so). Personally, I use a bucket, lid on top, but not snapped down for reds, but some whites I do snap the lid and keep cool very early on. There is plenty of O2 present.

 

[grapeman]

My original point is that if you are making a 6 gallon batch in a 6 gallon carboy you will have virtually no headspace. As soon as the yeast gets foamy, it will go out the airlock or even blow off tube and you will lose some of your wine.

 

[physics911]

Deezil, thank you for the in-depth explanation. I do have some follow-up questions.

csmason1957 said exactly what I was thinking last night. Every kit I have done, or read the instructions for, say to snap down the lid from the beginning. At which point we are back to having little or no O2 in the head-space after a few hours of fermenting. I have no doubt the kit manufacturers simplify things so they will appeal to a larger audience, however, I can't imagine adding one extra step to their instructions of, "cover loosely for the first two days" would scare anyone off. And if it truly makes a a noticeable difference in the yeast growth rate, and dispersal of H2S, why do they not advise to cover loosely?

Keep in mind, in my first post I indicated I was doing a kit. So what is different between doing a kit and starting from scratch, with regards to snapping down the lid or loosely covering?

I'm not arguing to get justification for using a carboy as a primary, I just want to understand the how and why of all the different steps. I clearly have a lot to learn about making wine and beer at home, and hopefully I will always have a lot to learn. I just want to make sure I learn the true chemistry, biology, and physics behind the process.

Thank you,
Chris

 

[richmke]

Kit makers design their instructions for the lowest common denominator, or as fool proof as possible. It results in a drinkable wine. If you want to make your wine a little better, you follow rules that take a little more effort.

Note: When a kit winemaker says to snap on the lid and put on an airlock, they assume a certain amount of headspace (O2) in the pail. By going to a carboy with no headspace, you have deviated from the instructions.

 

[Deezil]

You'd be surprised about how easily new winemakers with the jitters can get confused lol. These kit manufacturers design these kits so that they're almost fail-less. They 'balance' these kits, in terms of acidity and sugar, when diluted properly, and I'm rather sure they pay attention to the YAN levels as well; you may notice that most kits are using one of only a few types of yeast. EC-1118 being very common, K1V-1116 is another. Sometimes you'll find higher end reds with some thing a little more finicky, but if you're spending that much, you usually have done this a time or two already.

But these yeasts are almost fail proof themselves; they're strong fermenters, low H2S production and low nutrient demands.. it takes a lot to piss then off, comparatively. The actions of pouring these concentrates into a bucket, followed by the action of pouring water in behind them, then followed by the stirring of a few ingredients into the diluted kit - that's a good deal of oxygen, and pair that oxygen up with the balanced-out environment.. they design these kits for success (with the yeasts they supply)

"Set it, and forget it" comes to mind.

Which is all well and fine, because it works in that situation.
But you're also teaching yourself habits, like it's okay to snap the lid down on a new fermentation.

The day will come when, even if you're still making kits, you may do something as simple as change the yeast. Well if you pick a yeast that has a higher nutrient demand than what they designed the kit for, and your added nutrients are the same schedule as you used for the less finicky EC- 1118, I can practically promise you now that you'll crack that lid one day and get blown off your feet by H2S/rotten eggs smell.

(Note: if you change something as simple as the yeast, you may void the warranty; they can't guarantee success)

These kits are designed to be simple, and to work. They want sales, and positive feedback. They don't really care, design nor expect these to make world class wines. They want people to be satisfied enough, to get buzzed/drunk, and order another kit. Their instructions work with kits.

Parameters are a whole lot less perfect in the real world. If you get some under- or over-ripe grapes, the acidity-sugar balance will be off. Every year, in every vineyard, YAN levels are different no matter what any of us do. You can pull the same grapes off the same acre, for 5 years in a row, and every one of them will have different sugar-acidity-YAN numbers. You can time so that they're close, but something will be different every time.

Other fruits, say blackberries, elderberries, blueberries - they outnumber posts here of other fruits, because these fruits give people a harder time. It's a steep learning curve sometimes, depending on how hardly ingrained this 'kit mantra' is in the winemaker we're helping. They want to know the how's and the whys too, but they've made 12-15-20 kits and seen their process work every time. So it's Their process now, and they can't figure out why a kit manufacturer would teach them steps that wouldn't apply outside of those kits - I mean, you're still making wine right? Lol.. So the steps MUST be the same, it's only logical...

So basically, you can get away with it in a kit, but then we get the pleasure of trying to break your bad habits when you decide to step outside that small box.. it's a lot easier to teach you better wine making practices from the beginning than it is to fix a bad habit, especially if you're already interested in the how's and the whys..