Battonage on a Merlot Kit ...Whaaattt????

[Tnuscan]

Ok. First I am not a beginner and I am definitely not a pro. I have read a question or two on this topic. I also know it is not recommended to do on a red wine. Here is my plan, unless I'm convinced otherwise. Taking a cheap Merlot kit after getting it ready and before pitching yeast, pulling a gallon aside to try battonage on it. I will leave the bentonite out, ferment to completion, k-meta and proceed for 3 or 4 weeks. Rack and clear..??

From what I read this pulls out the tannin, and I like tannin. Maybe/ probably add back?? Also read it can pull out flavors. Add flavors, I believe it can be achieved?? I heard years back that someone used this technique on reds. I don't believe everything I hear, but this one stuck in my mind. Not ever hearing positive proof of ruin, I've let curiosity get the best of me. If you have tried it with no success please post. Have any advice please post also.

Thanks for your opinions and help!!

 

[Mismost]

What's the worst that could happen? You might wind with a gallon of real good red wine vinegar. But you still have 4 gallons of Merlot!

 

[Tnuscan]

What's the worst that could happen? You might wind with a gallon of real good red wine vinegar. But you still have 4 gallons of Merlot!

I agree. If I keep an eye on it, it shouldn't get away. Was going to half the kit but changed to a gallon. If anything it will be a learning experience to share with others.
All suggestions will be appreciated!

 

[JohnT]

I have experimented with this in the past and found that the experiments that I performed had the battonage wines becoming infused with mecaptan compounds. YUK!

I let this experiment drop based on the results, but felt that it is worthy of a re-visit. I am not all together sure if the mecaptan problem could have been overcome by an additional dose of nutrients..

Let us know how you make out and, of course, pictures are always appreciated!

 

[stickman]

For what it's worth, I've provided some information below that I had previously saved from a web page. Unfortunately, I don't have the original site information for a footnote.

The gallon you leave on the lees may become reductive, I believe this is what they are referring to (oxygen sensor) in the Conventional Wisdom section. If the wine starts to show sulfur odors, additional oxygen and stirring is needed. You may want to consider leaving 20ml of headspace for the gallon, and open the gallon to allow air into the headspace, close and then shake. Doing this maybe 2 times a month will provide a measured amount of oxygen, but more may be needed if sulfur odors are detected.
I'm sure it will be interesting. I will try 5gal on my next batch in the fall.


Élevage: Sur Lies Methode for Red Wines
The goal is to add “fat” to make luxury wines with the Sur Lies Methode. The method is a variant of the French wine-farm élevage and white Burgundy Sur Lies Methode. Yeast lees release “fat” tasting compounds. Incidental introduction of oxygen may have an effect on the production of “fat.” After the wine is clarified of yeast and degassed (carbon dioxide), oxygen oxidizes procyanidin tannins. Oxygenation should be limited, largely to winter (120 days after vinification). Sur Lies Methode for red wine is an experimental, even risky, technique.

Issues, Challenges, Problems
Oxygen is a risk for the winemaker. The Sur Lies Methode is a variant of the French wine-farm barrel élevage, which introduces 2.5 mL/L per month oxygen. Today, California winemakers are aging red wines Sur Lies Methode through winter. It is questionable whether the practice should be used through summer. Incidental oxygenation (30 mL/L/Year) has dramatic effects on yeast cell death. The Sur Lies Methode adds something to wine during the barrel élevage, but comes at a risk if it is continued for more than 6 months. We recommend this method include limiting battonage to once per month after 90 days sur lies, and that the winemaker stop stirring after six months.

Conventional Wisdom
Wines that are aged sur lies are kept in contact with up to 50% of the vinification dregs. The Sur Lies method is comprised of three major factors: barrel aging, yeast dregs, and oxygenation. The dregs behave like a dissolved “oxygen sensor” during the aging of the wine on dregs, while at the same time making it possible to protect substances from oxidation. Yeast dregs are antioxidants and regulate the damaging effects of oxygenation in the wine. Aging sur lies nourishes and adds flavor to red wines. It enhances an allusion to the roundness, and even the elegance of the wine. In red wines, dregs add soluble polysaccharides and neutral proteins, which improve the redox potential and reduce the astringency of the tannins. It has also been shown that dregs absorb oxygen and indirectly protect red wines from purely chemical reactions.

 

[roger80465]

Thank you stickman for the information. I have always thought of sur lies as a white wine thing and never even heard of it for reds. I learned something new again today! I love days like that! Now I may have to try it!

 

[Tnuscan]

I have experimented with this in the past and found that the experiments that I performed had the battonage wines becoming infused with mecaptan compounds. YUK!

I let this experiment drop based on the results, but felt that it is worthy of a re-visit. I am not all together sure if the mecaptan problem could have been overcome by an additional dose of nutrients..

Let us know how you make out and, of course, pictures are always appreciated!

Yes this is one of my concerns. Did you notice this during fermentation, (because of the mention of nutrients), or was it during the battonage process? And if during battonage would it of been around 8 to 10 weeks? Hope you can remember.
I may go back to splitting the batch, Taking 1 gallon to 6 weeks and stopping, then proceed with second 1 gallon further into the process.
I will continue to gather as much info as possible. I will be starting this by Monday. And I will check into the process of making pictures.
Thanks!

 

[Tnuscan]

For what it's worth, I've provided some information below that I had previously saved from a web page. Unfortunately, I don't have the original site information for a footnote.

The gallon you leave on the lees may become reductive, I believe this is what they are referring to (oxygen sensor) in the Conventional Wisdom section. If the wine starts to show sulfur odors, additional oxygen and stirring is needed. You may want to consider leaving 20ml of headspace for the gallon, and open the gallon to allow air into the headspace, close and then shake. Doing this maybe 2 times a month will provide a measured amount of oxygen, but more may be needed if sulfur odors are detected.
I'm sure it will be interesting. I will try 5gal on my next batch in the fall.


Élevage: Sur Lies Methode for Red Wines
The goal is to add “fat” to make luxury wines with the Sur Lies Methode. The method is a variant of the French wine-farm élevage and white Burgundy Sur Lies Methode. Yeast lees release “fat” tasting compounds. Incidental introduction of oxygen may have an effect on the production of “fat.” After the wine is clarified of yeast and degassed (carbon dioxide), oxygen oxidizes procyanidin tannins. Oxygenation should be limited, largely to winter (120 days after vinification). Sur Lies Methode for red wine is an experimental, even risky, technique.

Issues, Challenges, Problems
Oxygen is a risk for the winemaker. The Sur Lies Methode is a variant of the French wine-farm barrel élevage, which introduces 2.5 mL/L per month oxygen. Today, California winemakers are aging red wines Sur Lies Methode through winter. It is questionable whether the practice should be used through summer. Incidental oxygenation (30 mL/L/Year) has dramatic effects on yeast cell death. The Sur Lies Methode adds something to wine during the barrel élevage, but comes at a risk if it is continued for more than 6 months. We recommend this method include limiting battonage to once per month after 90 days sur lies, and that the winemaker stop stirring after six months.

Conventional Wisdom
Wines that are aged sur lies are kept in contact with up to 50% of the vinification dregs. The Sur Lies method is comprised of three major factors: barrel aging, yeast dregs, and oxygenation. The dregs behave like a dissolved “oxygen sensor” during the aging of the wine on dregs, while at the same time making it possible to protect substances from oxidation. Yeast dregs are antioxidants and regulate the damaging effects of oxygenation in the wine. Aging sur lies nourishes and adds flavor to red wines. It enhances an allusion to the roundness, and even the elegance of the wine. In red wines, dregs add soluble polysaccharides and neutral proteins, which improve the redox potential and reduce the astringency of the tannins. It has also been shown that dregs absorb oxygen and indirectly protect red wines from purely chemical reactions.

Thank you for this information, I really appreciate your help!

 

[JohnT]

Yes this is one of my concerns. Did you notice this during fermentation, (because of the mention of nutrients), or was it during the battonage process? And if during battonage would it of been around 8 to 10 weeks? Hope you can remember.
I may go back to splitting the batch, Taking 1 gallon to 6 weeks and stopping, then proceed with second 1 gallon further into the process.
I will continue to gather as much info as possible. I will be starting this by Monday. And I will check into the process of making pictures.
Thanks!

i first noticed it during battonage, 2 weeks in..

 

[joeswine]

In the mix

I don't really think applies to reds......and especially a kit ..

 

[Tnuscan]

I don't really think applies to reds......and especially a kit ..

That's 2 strikes, just 1 more strike, oh yea, and I like waiting for that lady to sing. Joe, Thanks you've talked me into it. I'll start it tomorrow. I'll also be tweeking the other part of the kit.

 

[Tnuscan]

i first noticed it during battonage, 2 weeks in..

Yikes, that's sooner than I was expecting. There are a lot of odds that are against the red. I will continue to experiment with this even if I fail. I like a challenge, I have a few ideas to try, and I will continue to gather all the info I can. If you or anyone else thinks of any more info, good or bad let me know. I have read a few things from several pages like Cornell etc. I feel that there are positives to this process with reds, like with everything knowledge is key.

 

[stickman]

I think ultimately there are a lot of risks associated with red wine and lees, sulfur odors, bacterial activity etc., which is probably why it is generally not recommended. Here is a link to some additional information about the role of oxygen during winemaking as well as (bottom page 4) Batonnage with red wine.

http://www.delteil-consultant.com/pdf/RD/oxygen2.pdf

 

[Tnuscan]

i first noticed it during battonage, 2 weeks in..

Did this also go through mlf ?

 

[JohnT]

Did this also go through mlf ?

No, not yet.

 

[Tnuscan]

I think ultimately there are a lot of risks associated with red wine and lees, sulfur odors, bacterial activity etc., which is probably why it is generally not recommended. Here is a link to some additional information about the role of oxygen during winemaking as well as (bottom page 4) Batonnage with red wine.

http://www.delteil-consultant.com/pdf/RD/oxygen2.pdf

Thanks again for your help!