Wine Cellar I need your advice and tips on building

[Sammyk]

We decided to have a wine cellar built. It will also double as a tornado shelter because our home has no basement and being an open style home with windows (23 of them) in every room there is really no place to go in the event of a tornado.
I have a contractor that is going to build it for us.

It is going to be built into a hill on the side of our garage. While the contractor (a former neighbor who still lives in our general area) has an idea how it should be built I need to know other specifics that are needed to make it successful. Since the hill is not quite high enough he is thinking he will need to dig about 2' deeper to get a portion of the cellar under ground.

We are thinking 10 x 10 and what he said to was save room the stairs would be on the outside with a landing on the bottom and a drain under the landing for rain fall. This would also be good to get our 2 large dogs down there in the event of a tornado who will climb regular stairs.

We have electricity in the garage so running electricity is not a problem. He is thinking one ceiling light and a couple of outlets - in case we need to run a dehumidifier or anything else electrical.

This will NOT be used to make wine but for storage and aging. He seems to think it will stay around ground temperature of 55 degrees.

He is thinking cement would be poured on top of a gravel bed for a floor. On top of the hill he would pour a cement slab more or less to mark where the cellar is located and so cars don't park there since the area in next to the garage.

Since he is not familiar with wine cellars per say but has some ideas what needs to be done. I am asking those of you with knowledge on how to build a cellar and build it right the first time for your input.

Since the temperature will soon warm up here in NC and I need to get the wine I have made out of the house soon. He hopes to start next week.

Please tell me what should or should not be incorporated.

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas you can share.

 

[ibglowin]

I have a very hard time believing that the "cellar" will be ~55 degrees in NC if its only two feet below ground. I would have a backup plan to add AC somehow just in case.

 

[Sammyk]

While it is only 2' underground the hill will be replaced so it will be covered in red clay dirt. Do you think it needs to be dug deeper?

I don' know that is why I am asking.

 

[ibglowin]

How much dirt will be on the roof? What about the surrounding walls? What will the walls be made from? How thick? Even with 2 feet of dirt on top of the roof I just don't see how you will have anywhere close to 55 degrees (except maybe in the dead of winter).

 

[Runningwolf]

Although I do not live in NC, my basement stays 63*-68* year round and one wall is exposed. That is without heating or cooling it.I would think it's going to be ok since the temperature will not fluctuate very much. Again I do not live down south so I really don't know what your cellar temps will be.

 

[Sammyk]

Last summer we kept the wine in lidded Rubbermaid totes in the crawl space but it was too hard to get in and out of there. Mold grew on the Rubbermaids and on the outside of the carboys. A wet towel with a little bleach cleaned up the outside of the carboys. In the fall we moved everything inside to an upstairs bedroom.

The temperature stayed at around 66 degrees even in the heat of the summer which was in the 90's. That crawl space is huge 80' long by 30' wide with a dirt floor.

OK the reason I asked is WE don't know anything for sure on how to build this and are looking for advise on how to build the cellar/shelter.

OK so the hill is about 8' above ground level so he would dig out the hill and then down some, build the cellar/shelter and cover it back up. We estimated there would be 12 inches of dirt on top maybe a bit more and then a concrete pad.

 

[Sammyk]

On the one side of the hill it slopes down to ground level so that is where the steps would be build going down into the cellar/shelter.

 

[TheWineThief]

The vapor barrier is super important to prevent mold depending on your temperature difference. some good reading info here mostly for refrigerated storage

http://www.winecellarinnovations.com/learn/how-to-build-a-wine-cellar.htm

 

[Sammyk]

Wine Thief we did read that article when we first started looking at our options. That article referred to building a cellar in a home. That is not an option for us.

We even looked into storage units that are climate controlled. The closest one to us is over an hour away one way so that is not an option.

Any one else have any ideas or thoughts?

 

[Sammyk]

Photos of land for wine cellar

The hill area is about 20 by 25 feet and on the east side of the garage about 20' away from the garage.

Without actually measuring it appears at the highest point of the hill is about 3' from where the land levels out down below where the cellar would be.

Photos are
looking south from the top of the hill.

facing north from the back yard,

facing northwest from the back yard. In this photo you can not see but to right of the photo is where the steps would lead down into the cellar because the land is fairly level there.

After doing the photos we did talk to the contractor who did not do any actual measurements he did agree it would have to be dug at least 4' into the ground because it has to be at least 7' tall to accommodate a 6' person.

 

[grapeman]

Only thing I see wrong with the pictures is there is green stuff growing in February! That's just wrong. We woke up agin to a winter wonderland with everything covered with wet sticky snow!
You must really love wine to build a cellar just for it!

 

[jswordy]

You're in NC, better make it a wine cellar/tornado shelter while you're at it.

Only thing I see is that it is not deep enough to be a truly covered structure unless you truck in some more dirt. The stuff that comes from your excavation probably won't be enough to cover it.

Be sure you have adequate ventilation or a dehumidification system, our you will have dampness and mold growing in no time flat. Be sure he seals the outside.

Did you check out the concrete prefab units for tornado shelters? Be the quickest way to do it. Buy a great big one, kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[jswordy]

Ya got two threads going.

I have one suggestion: prefab. Call a septic tank company (they usually deal in tornado shelters too) and look at what you can get ready-made to put in a hole. It will be cheaper and a solid pour.

The walls? Are they to be concrete block? Invites seepage and they can collapse.

I would rethink concrete slab to keep cars off the top. Seems to me that would invite them onto the top. Instead, maybe fence it off.

Cannot overstate the moisture woes in the South for underground structures. You had better have a good ventilation system and/or dehumidifier.

If you want to be sure to keep it cool, add 2-4" thick rigid foamboard on the outside top and sides where they are not buried deep in the earth. Cover with soil.

My under-house root cellar is 63 when it is 90 out, and it is open on top to the crawlspace.

 

[Runningwolf]

Why not build something twice as big and build it above ground and add hvac. I would think it would be a lot cheaper and you got have an awesome tasting room at the same time for guests. It might be just a small table and some glasses for about four people. Put a steel door on it for security. What your building will add to your property taxes but often times when you build a free standing building without a permenant foundation it wont be taxible. There are places that specialize in building large custum sheds and I would think you could work with them for something like this. Just an idea and my opinion.

 

[Sammyk]

I did not mean to post 2 threads. I had a window open to ask an unrelated question and got side tracked for a couple of hours and forgot what I was doing when I came back to the computer.
Jim we are still waiting on the contractor to figure which is less expensive, poured walls or blocks. He has a huge job he is working on and we are next in line, hopefully some time next week he hopes to get a price together. I had hoped he could at least give up a ball park price so we can decide if we can even afford it.

I will check tomorrow with septic companies. Great idea!

Some online search did talk about vapor barriers and the contractor thought on both sides of walls and ceiling would be required.

Also Mike in NM that I corresponded with also suggested a vent be added at construction time in case we need to add air conditioner at a later date.

There is a very long deck that we have to go under to access the crawl space and there is a 15,000 gallon pond about 6' away from the deck OR we would have tried to do the storage in the crawl space. It would be too labor intensive to haul dirt out from the crawl space with a wheelbarrow because there is no way to get equipment near the crawl space. It would all have to be dug and hauled out by hand.

 

[Sammyk]

Mods I did not intentionally start 2 threads so if you want to move or delete one that is fine with me.

grapeman funny! What you see is weeds not grass. With 2.5 acres some areas are just weeds BUT the grass is greening up here too since we received some much needed rain.
I am in western NC and we don't have a lot of tornado s we do have them and that is a great idea about the prefab concrete shelters. I will look into that and the septic tanks. Thanks bunches, Jim!

Dan one thing we did find out is that is if it is less than 12 x 12 we do not need a building permit. So we will stay under that size.

 

[DaveL]

i would recomend poured walls. More expensive, worth it. Make sure to use wall form ties with a 3/4 inch break back to allow patching the tie holes with grout before waterproofing. Concrete is much more waterproof than block as the block morter joints are all potential cracks.
At the bottomn of the stairs be sure the landing with the drain is below the floor level about 4 inches to allow water to drain before floding the cellar. Are there any trees that could drop leaves and clog the exterior drain?
Also your excavation wil not be near your foundation for your house will it? Picture a 45 degree angle from the bottom of the foundation extending outward. if you encroach on this you could undermine you foundation. In sandy soils the angle could be even less.

You might want to consider sloping the interior floor towards the door to facilitate washing the floor out to the drain in case bottles should burst, leak etc.
If you use block be sure to fill the cells with grout so it is essentially a solid wall anyway.
if your roof is covered by 2 ft of earth your temps should remain relatively constant.
A good door would be helpful as well.

 

[Sammyk]

DaveL all great suggestions! Thank you! I am keeping notes on different suggestions and ideas to discuss with the contractor.

At least 20' from garage and even further from the home. Not any trees in that area but there are trees on the property so there are some leaves that could blow in from winds. And I did make a note to be sure that the drain is checked for leaves in the fall.

He did talk about a couple of inches of gravel under the cement floor. Good idea?

 

[DaveL]

Pretty standard in most parts of the country to put 4 inches of gravel( 21A or 57 stone) under a slab. If you use a 21 A, think crush and run, stone dust etc, be sure it is tamped, compacted well. When dealing with a concrete floor think of a pain of glass. if laid on a flat hard surface you could wealk on it. Put a smal pebble under it allowing it to flex, and it will crack in a second.
With the leaves, remember the old pictures/ movies of the doors over the steps to the cellar? maybe a good option. I would design it so the walls rest on foundations with the slab poured above the foundations inside the walls. Therfore the joint between the foundation and walls is below floor level.
Then incorporate a perforated drain tile, french drain, around the foundaton, draining to a lower elevation if possible. There are also water stops that can be used between the slab and the wall tha expand when they get wet to stop any water from encroaching there. But if the foundation is properly drained they are seldom used.

 

[DaveL]

This thought just crossed my mind when thinking about the business your in and you issue of keeping people fromdriving over the cellar. What if you had a pond near the top of your cellar. Then incorporated a water feature which trickled through you cellar and was pumped back up to the pond as a fountain? Would make an easy humidifier. It would need some safegaurds in case the pump were to fail of course.