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my own 2014 barrel reserve. must say that it is very nice...
What's in your glass tonight?
- Thread starter Boatboy24
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I just sat down to WMT, after pouring myself a glass of the now-one-day-opened Yakima Valley Syrah. I read your post first, then took a sip of my wine. There are other wines in my quiver that I would describe exactly as you described this one, but I would NOT describe this wine as thin or acidic.
I sometimes wish I understood what leads to these disparate outcomes!
Paul, I think if we can get small groups of winemakers that live relatively close together to keep sharing what they have made, then sample from like wines that different individuals have made, we might have a chance to figure out what each of us are doing differently to change the outcome of a particular kit.
I'm excited to possibly share a Stags Leap Merlot that Boatboy Jim made (and shared with me today) and let spend some time in a barrel with jgmann Jim and his Stags Leap Merlot and educate Jim #2 and myself as to what a barrel can do to improve a wine (since neither of us own a barrel, yet).
I have two Pinot Grigio buckets which have tested the same, and plan on using two different yeasts but keep everything else the same in hopes of figuring out what a D47 and QA23 yeast impart on this particular Pinot Grigio. Boatboy Jim added it would be interesting to see if we saved a few bottles for 3 or so years to see if the flavors imparted by the two different yeasts converged to the point we couldn't tell that the bottles had wine fermented with different yeasts.
Just food (and drink) for thought.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Sour is exactly it. In fact, I gave @ceeaton two wines yesterday that have the same trait and asked him to test them out and see if its just me. I have a few like this, and they all exhibit this same characteristic. At this point, I think it is something I've done, but I cannot, for the life of me, find a common thread between them that other wines don't have.
I still have one bottle of that left. IIRC it was made in 2011 Perhaps I need to open and add another data point to this now discontinued product.
That label alone should kick the enjoyability up a couple of notches! Mine has the generic CC label, which looks tawdry in comparison.
LOL, The 3lb bottle would probably help a little as well. IIRC that bottle was a recycled TJ's Reserve Petit Syrah bottle. The wine was excellent @ $10 and the bottle was Uber high quality as well. Amazing QPR wine.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
ColemanM
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Boatboy, I have a possible explanation. I wonder if it has to do with either oxidation or co2 still in the wine. I'm so distraught over this "taste" in all my kit wines that I no longer make them. I may try a stag leaps Merlot with two 50# frozen Merlot skins, go with the slightly extended ferment/clear schedule and bottle in under 90 days. See if that work, but as for now, I'm still in my winter hobby so no grapes for me til fall.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Got some friends showing up for dinner momentarily. On deck for tonight is the 2015 LR Shiraz Viognier and a little Black Forest Port.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
I don't think its CO2, as all the wines were at least 9 months old when bottled and had been barrel aged. Oxidation is an interesting thought. Would that cause a sour taste? Visibly, the wines don't appear to be oxidized. And they've been under 1+1 corks from Lafitte.
Tnuscan
Tnuscan=Tennesseean
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Would you care to give more detail and info on this taste?
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Doing some more searching today and one possible culprit is Volatile Acidity.
"Description. While several other volatile acids (those organic acids separable by distillation) - lactic, succinic, and propionic - occur in wine, Volatile Acidity commonly (but inaccurately) is used to refer to both acetic acid and ethyl acetate. Table vinegar is 5% (50 g/L) acetic acid whereas the threshold in wine is about 0.2 g/L. Legal limits are about 1.2 to 1.5 g/L and levels above 1.5 g/L are usually frankly vinegary. Acetic acid alone has only slight impact on aroma and bouquet but ethyl acetate is often present. The nose and particularly the flavour of acetic acid is a slightly sweet, acidic, (vinegary) character and is particularly noticeable in the aftertaste where it tends to linger.
Cause. (see Ethyl Acetate). Acetic acid bacteria (Acetobacter spp.) as contaminants of slightly fermenting damaged grapes will provide a large inoculum that can quickly produce a lot of vinegar especially in an unattended red wine cap.
Prevention. See ethyl acetate.
Treatment. Wine with frank acetic acid should be sulphited as soon as possible to kill the bacteria. Then it can be blended with another wine and the acetic acid diluted to a level where it is not noticeable.
Judging. When ethyl acetate is present, acetic acid is difficult to detect because it is overwhelmed by the aggressiveness of the acetate ester and because few judges will actually taste such wine. When ethyl acetate is not evident, acetic acid V.A. at levels high enough to be identified is rather rare."
If proper sulfite levels are not present, it sounds like this could be an issue.
I pulled out the Tempranillo Granacha this evening. I really love the overall oak profile. If you hadn't said to watch for the sour taste, I would probably have chalked it up to the style and type of grapes used in the kit. By no means is this an unpleasant wine to me. The oak in the nose matches up with the oak in the taste. A decent amount of my favorite wines have an overall sour cherry backbone to their expected flavor profile. It does have an overall sour taste, most noticeable in the finish.
One thing I notice, and you will probably notice in the Merlot blend I gave you, is about 15 seconds after initially tasting the wine, I get a slight (and I mean very slight) sensation of bitterness at the back of my tongue. Almost like the aftertaste from a bell pepper. It is much more pronounced in the Merlot than it is in the wine you gave me. I attributed that in the Merlot blend to the Malbec lug I added.
BTW, I tested the pH at 3.42 and the TA at 6.8 g/L. Also noticed wine diamonds forming in my glass, and it's 64.0 *F in my basement right now. Not being a heavy bodied red, I wonder if the acid might be borderline too high if it is dropping crystals in my glass.
You never gave me the particulars like you did on the other wines, so I really can't say if there was something you did that added to the overall sour profile.
If you like one of the wines I gave you I'd be willing to trade with this one if you have a lot still on hand. The more I drink this wine, the more I like it. Unless you added something out of the ordinary while making this wine I think your technique is quite sound. It is a very clean wine (ie. no noticeable faults to me). Thank you for the bottle!
Other thoughts on the issue. Was thinking of Brettanomyes, but I didn't get the normal "barnyard" aromas (have a friend that makes lots of Brett beers). Plus that would have shown up in the wines that you put in the barrel after this one.
I haven't had a sip for about 10 minutes since I'm typing this, and I still have a really nice oak flavor in my mouth. I'd say the oak monster has made an appearance, but this is not over the top and the flavor is really excellent, just has a lot of staying power. Overall I think it is a very good wine (sorry, I'm sure you were hoping I'd say it was way too sour and awful, didn't mean to let you down).
Edit: strange...just put the rest of the bottle in my decanter and there are no wine diamonds in the bottle!?!
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Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Craig:
Great notes and observations. Thanks so much for the input. I really appreciate it. It's not often that you can hand a bottle to someone and say "hey, does this taste like crap to you too?".
I think your perceptions of the wine are similar to mine, though I don't recall noting much oak on this one. But as far as acid/bitter goes, we are in sync. It doesn't ruin the wine for me, but I just don't think that's what it was intended to be and it is less enjoyable than I think it should be. I'll be interested to see if you note similar properties on the Monastrell/Petit Verdot.
Very interesting about the crystals in the glass but not the bottle/decanter.
Edit: other than swapping yeast and barrel time, I didn't do much to this one. Started 1/18/14. I replaced kit yeast with D-254. It spent 12 weeks in a 1 year old barrel. Note on 10 July of that year: " Quite good already, even before barrel time. Wine is quite dry, but has nice fruit - shows both varietals well." Then on bottling day, Nov 3rd: "Wine tastes a little flat, with not much flavor.". Reading that reminds me of my other complaint with these wines: there's just not much there, aside from that bite.
Great notes and observations. Thanks so much for the input. I really appreciate it. It's not often that you can hand a bottle to someone and say "hey, does this taste like crap to you too?".
I think your perceptions of the wine are similar to mine, though I don't recall noting much oak on this one. But as far as acid/bitter goes, we are in sync. It doesn't ruin the wine for me, but I just don't think that's what it was intended to be and it is less enjoyable than I think it should be. I'll be interested to see if you note similar properties on the Monastrell/Petit Verdot. Very interesting about the crystals in the glass but not the bottle/decanter.
Edit: other than swapping yeast and barrel time, I didn't do much to this one. Started 1/18/14. I replaced kit yeast with D-254. It spent 12 weeks in a 1 year old barrel. Note on 10 July of that year: " Quite good already, even before barrel time. Wine is quite dry, but has nice fruit - shows both varietals well." Then on bottling day, Nov 3rd: "Wine tastes a little flat, with not much flavor.". Reading that reminds me of my other complaint with these wines: there's just not much there, aside from that bite.
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ColemanM
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So, Tnuscan, I'm having a hard time putting my sour taste to words. I'd have to say it's more of a very unbalanced taste with high acid sourness. Tonight, though, I am having a WE old vine Zin with the pressed skins of a OVZin frozen must bucket. It's about 15 months old. Looks beautiful. Still has kit taste behind it. Smells of the OVZin skins and tastes more like a Zin. Still, high acid and sour. Mlf time?
