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Takeadoe

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Greetings from Ohio. I've been making wine with my own fruit and honey for a couple of years now and it just occurred to me that I think I'm missing a critical step in the process. Here goes: I prepare a 6-gallon batch in the primary; rack it to the carboy (it fills the entire carboy); I rack it and leave the "crud" in the bottom of the carboy, which means that when I rack it back into the carboy it doesn't completely fill it so I top it off with water; I rack it a couple more times and repeat the process of topping off with water. In the end, I'm finding that my wine has been watered down significantly. Where am I going wrong? Should I bother topping off with water? Should I be using a smaller carboy each time I rack? Should I simply be topping with grape juice or some other juice product? Or does it all start at the beginning with a stronger "start"? In other words, should I be putting enough fruit and honey for a seven gallon batch, knowing that I will ultimately be watering it down to 6 gallons.

Your help on this would really be appreciated!

Mike
 
I normally top off with a similar wine. If you are making 6 gallons try making an initial batch of 6.5 gallons. Put the extra into a couple bottles and cork them. Then when you need to top off you have some ready. If not that, use esome of last years wine (if you have some left over).
 
I usually start w/ 6 gallons in the primary (non kit batches) - rack w/ the most of the yeast into 5 gal. and 1 gal. carboy for secondary ( a little head space during secondary ferment is ok as long as things are still active).

Then on the next rack I top off the 5 gal. carboy w/ whatever I need from the 1 gal. carboy. Anything left from the 1 gal. carboy goes into a magnum and a standard bottle, or two magnums, etc... then each subsequent racking I lose a little volume but never need to top up with anything which was not part of the original batch.


If I end up with a half bottle of anything it goes into the frig to top up or gets consumed.... which is what usually happens.
 
The best way to handle this is to have a variety of glassware---gallon jugs, 1/2 liter jugs, etc. Also, go to the dollar store and buy bags of glass spheres used for decorating--or marbles if you find them cheap. Never use water to top up.

We make many fruit wines and water never touches our wines. It's 100% fruit, and all of them have very big flavor. That is the way to enjoy fruit wines.
 
any non wine stores that sell 1 gal jugs that would work for this? dont wanna go all the way to the wine store.
 
Most of the big box stores sell a gal. jug to make tea in. I have used that in the past, and even fermented a couple of batches in it. Had a little spout on the bottom, you can drain the wine off and leave the sediment. Havn't done a gal. batch in a long time, as much work to do that as 5 gal. Arne.
 
Buy a gallon of Carlo Rossi wine. Drink the wine and save the jug.
 
Buy a gallon of Carlo Rossi wine. Drink the wine and save the jug.

Do we have to drink it? Couldn't we just pour it down the drain....


(Cost's about the same as a gallon carboy anyway)
 
The best way to handle this is to have a variety of glassware---gallon jugs, 1/2 liter jugs, etc. Also, go to the dollar store and buy bags of glass spheres used for decorating--or marbles if you find them cheap. Never use water to top up.

We make many fruit wines and water never touches our wines. It's 100% fruit, and all of them have very big flavor. That is the way to enjoy fruit wines.

Turock - You've said a couple of things that struck me. "100% fruit wine" Can you elaborate? How do you make a wine with no water? That's a lot of fruit. Can you share a recipe? I've never seen one. Also, you lost with the Dollar store purchase. What would those be used for? Finally, why is it critical to top off? Why must the wine in the secondary go clear to the top?

Thank you for your time!

Mike
 
Turock - You've said a couple of things that struck me. "100% fruit wine" Can you elaborate? How do you make a wine with no water? That's a lot of fruit. Can you share a recipe? I've never seen one. Also, you lost with the Dollar store purchase. What would those be used for? Finally, why is it critical to top off? Why must the wine in the secondary go clear to the top?

Thank you for your time!

Mike

Mike, I believe he is saying to sanatize the spheres or marbles and use them to take up the excess space in your wine. Place them in the carboy til your headspace get where you want it. I have read on here where it can be hard to rack off the marbles, tho, as the sediment doesn't get packed down as well. Arne.
 
Mike---On the glass spheres, you use them to take up the space like Arne said. We have a siphon hose with a curved wand on the end and it works well to keep the siphoning wine away from the marbles. We use lots of marbles. Whatever wine we can't siphon off safely gets placed in a small wine bottle or jug. When we bottle, we're doing quite a big session and all the leftovers go into the same bottle. We allow it to clarify again and bottle it later. You make some interesting blends by saving all your leftovers this way.

The dollar store has lots of 1 pound bags of these spheres for $1.00 per bag. Just be sure they aren't metallic coated---colored glass is OK, just not the coated ones. Throw them in some SO2 to clean, then add them to top up.

The reason topping up is important is to limit the size of area that is exposed to O2. A carboy not filled to the top has all that space where O2 is contacting the wine. At the neck, it's very small. You don't want your wine to oxidize. Remember--as the wine ages you no longer have the protection of the pressure from CO2 from the ferment.

Don't forget to hit the recycle center, if you have one, to pick up bottles and jugs. Those large wine bottles make good secondary fermenters too. Just get yourself some #2 corks to fit them with an airlock. #2 cork fits all wine bottles.

No Mike, you will never see a recipe for wine without water. It would be way too hard for a beginner to understand because making wine this way is "off-recipe." We make many different kinds of fruit wine and the flavors were never what we expected them to be. In 2005, we began a program of changing the way we made wine. The biggest change was to stop using water. We freeze all the fruit first--that gives you a lot of juice to work with. We bag the fruit, throw it into the fermenter and let it thaw. Now this is where it gets a little hard until you do it a couple times--you have to estimate how many gallons of wine you'll get from the must. As an example, it takes 1 1/2 bushels of grapes to get 5 gallons of wine. 40 pounds, or so, will get you about 5 gallons. One year we had 180# of blackberries and that made 15 gallons of wine. So once you figure out how many gallons of wine you'll have, you use that to adjust your chemistries--nutrient, calcium carbonate or acid blend, etc.

Because you have little juice, you'll have to use a graduate to put some juice in to float your hydrometer for sugar addition to adjust brix. But as easier way is to use a refractometer because it only takes one drop of juice.

We use a PH meter instead of doing TA. You really need to get your PH adjusted at the primary when making fruit wines. We hate doing any acrobatics at bottling time---so we spend lots of time at the primary designing the wine there.

Many beginners use water for PH adjustment---don't do it. Use calcium carbonate instead. There is only one person who made water into wine, and I guarantee that the rest of us can't do it.

Over the last few years, I've been teaching this "no water" technique to people on another forum and they are all making better fruit wines now and they brag about the results. Give it a try next time you work with fruit---your wines will go to a new level, and all your fruit wines will taste like the fruit they're made from--instead of tasting like wine. Yep--it's expensive. If you can't pick your own free fruit then just begin by eliminating how much water you use. As you cut it down, even those wines will improve.
 
What you say here seems very logical, but for kit wines it seems that water is ok for topping up, based on this post on WineExpert. If this is true for all of the kits, then all of the marbles, beads and extra wine for topping up might be a waste of time.
 
Ken--what you say there is probably true. I didn't think we were talking about kits. You should always follow the directions that come with the kit. My technique above is for wine made from fruit. But when working with cold weather grapes, you can use the same technique to make better wine---just crush and add no water.

We're entering our 23rd year of winemaking and, in all that time, I never made wine from a kit so I don't claim to know any technique of working with them.
 
Turock - I would like to hear more about this. Perhaps I can your discussion on this other forum that you mentioned. I know one thing for sure - I'm not going to continue making wine if it all tastes the same regardless of the fruit that I use. I've got a blackberry meade that I will bottle this weekend. It has the best flavor by far of anything I've ever made. The really cool thing - all my own fruit! I know that I had between 30-35 lbs of blackberries, as I made to 5 gallon batches - one with sugar, the other other with honey. Like you, I've been freezing all my berries and grapes first. I should soon have enough grapes to make a water-free batch of wine and in a couple years, should have enough elderberries to do the same with. Any how, you covered a lot of ground in your post. I had a lot of questions (i'm very new to this) but I didn't want to bother you.

Mike
 
Mike--What do you mean by "you didn't want to bother me." Anyone who joins a wine forum should be ready to "be bothered." The only reason to join a group like this is to share info,experience, and help each other. Even tho I've been winemaking a long time, I often learn new things from people who are just entering the hobby.

In ANY hobby---if you don't end up having success for the amount of struggle you put in, you get disgusted and just give up. So the older winemakers can help you there so that you learn to avoid newbie mistakes and make a better wine than you can buy.

Blackberry meade--rasp meade--all good stuff!! But you still have to get your basic recipe down to using less or no water. All of our fruit wines taste like the fruit they're made from--not that "wine" flavor. The key is water elimination and just go with the fruit. One quart of water is fine, if you want. Get your water additions real low and everything will be awesome. When you're making wine this year, start with this in mind and you'll be shocked at the result. Also, with no water, your acidity wii be higher so it's a good thing to get yourself a PH meter and adjust PH at the primary before you start fermenting. You wines will enter an entirely new dimension. Any time you have questions--I think anyone here is ready to answer. If I can help, let me know.
 
I agree - the less water used the more of the fruit flavor will come out.

Also - asking questions in this forum is not a bother to anybody - it is encouraged - that is how we all learn.

So don't feel that you are bothering folks by asking questions - that is what we are here for...
 
I never top up, although I would if I was carboy aging for more than 3 months. I usually bottle my Kit wine around week 6 and then bottle age from there. I get around 28 full bottles plus a glass or so, which goes right in the sink because I can't drink wine that young. I would never add water, but If I did top up it would be right before long term aging, and would use wine. I am keeping my fingers crossed I don't run into a problem but I know the risks.
 
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