RJ Spagnols Sur lie
- Thread starter Broge5
- Start date
Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
shoebiedoo
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2011
- Messages
- 894
- Reaction score
- 122
I wouldn't do it any other way!!! See me thread on batonnage I do ith with every chardonnay I make.
knockabout
Member
Will even unoaked chards benefit from battonage?
shoebiedoo
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2011
- Messages
- 894
- Reaction score
- 122
I"ve never tried it but all it does is ad a biscuity flavor.
SouthernChemist
Professor
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2011
- Messages
- 738
- Reaction score
- 104
http://winemakermag.com/924-sur-lie-wine-kits
Supposedly (I've never done it), hot climate Chardonnay does not do so well with sur lie/battonage as cooler climate Chardonnay does. It can be done to Pinot Gris/Blanc, Sauvignon Blanc, and Chenin Blanc. It's never really done to Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Viognier, and other aromatic whites.
Supposedly (I've never done it), hot climate Chardonnay does not do so well with sur lie/battonage as cooler climate Chardonnay does. It can be done to Pinot Gris/Blanc, Sauvignon Blanc, and Chenin Blanc. It's never really done to Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Viognier, and other aromatic whites.
knockabout
Member
Very nice link thanks southern chemist!
Broge5, when I say your posting, I was going to suggest that you PM Shoebiedoo on this subject but then I thought he would probably respond (and he did!). I have had his Chardonnay and it is excellent.
Thanks everybody for the input.
Southern chemist, thanks for the link. Very interesting. Looks like maybe the Australian Chardonnay might not be the best for sur lie.
Rocky, did you do sir lie on any of yours or when you get this kit? If so, or if not, about how long did it take to age to become really good?
Southern chemist, thanks for the link. Very interesting. Looks like maybe the Australian Chardonnay might not be the best for sur lie.
Rocky, did you do sir lie on any of yours or when you get this kit? If so, or if not, about how long did it take to age to become really good?
knockabout
Member
Not trying to hijack your thread but wondering if you think the cellar craft cru select New Zealand unoaked Chardonnay would be a good candidate for battonage? I read the linked article but can't figure out where this wine would be. Thank you for all your help and info!
SouthernChemist
Professor
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2011
- Messages
- 738
- Reaction score
- 104
I would say try it out. It's difficult to say without knowing where the grapes were sourced, but usually warmer climate Chardonnay is heavier in body, richer, and strong in the fruit flavors. Cooler climate Chardonnay has more acidity and citrus/mineral flavor with a lighter body. Oak is far more common in the warmer climate wines.
The description for this kit would lean more towards the cooler side of things based on the notes about acidity, minerality, citrus notes, and lack of oak.
If you're unsure, you can always split the batch and try battonage on half of the wine. That would be a good way to tell just what the technique has added to the wine.
Broge, I did not do the sur lie. I was referring to Shoebiedoo's Chardonnay on which he performed the sur lie process. His wine was excellent. I have never tried it.
This is a very interseting thread. I have just started the WE Eclipse Dry Creek Chardonnay and it is still in the primary. I have never heard of Battonage until now. I believe I'm going to try it with the WE kit. I found a posting by "Wade E" from Apr 2009 that talked about this. Below is his input. The WE kit has no oak, but that sounds like it's not a problem. I also read in Steve's old post that some people just leave it on the lees for a month or two and do not stir it up. It still adds that soft touch to the wine.
Battonage Instructions!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are the instructions for Battonage(Sur Lees) from Winemaker Mag and written by Tim Vandergrift who is the Technical service Manager for Winexpert wine co. and also use to work for RJ Spagnols.
You do the battonage before you stabilize the wine with K-meta and sorbate. Here are Tim's instructions:
Our kits tend to have a softer, more complex flavor profile than you might expect. We achieve this partly by carefully choosing our oak styles and the protocols for using them. By including the oak in with the fermentation (instead of after) we get a much softer profile, which includes some butter and vanilla notes, as opposed to woody or smoky characters.
Now you can’t do malolactic on the kits. It will end in tears if you try. However, there is a technique called ‘battonage’ that will help fatten up the finish of the wine, and give it a rich, creamy mouth feel. Here’s the deal:
· Make you kit up as normal, and rack to the secondary carboy on day 5-7 as directed.
· After ten days, ignore the instructions about fining and stabilizing. Instead, add one-quarter teaspoon of metabisulphite powder to the wine, and gently stir it up with a sanitized spoon.
· Get all of the yeast sediment in to suspension, make sure it’s nice and cloudy, but don’t splash or agitate.
· Top up with some decent Chardonnay wine (this is better than using water for this technique). At three or four day intervals, go back and stir the yeast up again.
· Repeat every three or four days for a month.
· Let the wine settle for two weeks, rack it into a clean, sanitized carboy, and follow all the remaining instructions on schedule, omitting no detail however slight.
By stirring the yeast into suspension repeatedly you get the benefits of the amino acids they carry, along with a host of compounds—principally mannoproteins, which give they creamy aroma and mouth feel.
Battonage Instructions!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are the instructions for Battonage(Sur Lees) from Winemaker Mag and written by Tim Vandergrift who is the Technical service Manager for Winexpert wine co. and also use to work for RJ Spagnols.
You do the battonage before you stabilize the wine with K-meta and sorbate. Here are Tim's instructions:
Our kits tend to have a softer, more complex flavor profile than you might expect. We achieve this partly by carefully choosing our oak styles and the protocols for using them. By including the oak in with the fermentation (instead of after) we get a much softer profile, which includes some butter and vanilla notes, as opposed to woody or smoky characters.
Now you can’t do malolactic on the kits. It will end in tears if you try. However, there is a technique called ‘battonage’ that will help fatten up the finish of the wine, and give it a rich, creamy mouth feel. Here’s the deal:
· Make you kit up as normal, and rack to the secondary carboy on day 5-7 as directed.
· After ten days, ignore the instructions about fining and stabilizing. Instead, add one-quarter teaspoon of metabisulphite powder to the wine, and gently stir it up with a sanitized spoon.
· Get all of the yeast sediment in to suspension, make sure it’s nice and cloudy, but don’t splash or agitate.
· Top up with some decent Chardonnay wine (this is better than using water for this technique). At three or four day intervals, go back and stir the yeast up again.
· Repeat every three or four days for a month.
· Let the wine settle for two weeks, rack it into a clean, sanitized carboy, and follow all the remaining instructions on schedule, omitting no detail however slight.
By stirring the yeast into suspension repeatedly you get the benefits of the amino acids they carry, along with a host of compounds—principally mannoproteins, which give they creamy aroma and mouth feel.
shoebiedoo
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2011
- Messages
- 894
- Reaction score
- 122
I've never done it to a red so I will not comment but I know there are some reds that benefit from Sur-Lie for sure.
shoebiedoo
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2011
- Messages
- 894
- Reaction score
- 122
2 things to add to this. One. make sure you top off whith your stirring utensil already in your corboy otherwise it will probably spill over the 1st time you stir.
I usueally stir everyother day for the 1st 2 weeks then twice a week for anotehr 2 then once a week for a month for a total of 2 months.
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
From what I have read pinot noir also benefits from surlie. In fact, I am performing it on mine.
SouthernChemist
Professor
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2011
- Messages
- 738
- Reaction score
- 104
Generally, you wouldn't do it to a red. That's not iron clad. You could try it for sure, but I don't know what the result would be. It works best with whites that would benefit from the additional flavor/texture that the technique adds (see Muscadet as a prime example of a very basic, unappealing wine that is made better). It's not that it won't work for a hit climate Chardonnay or a red wine, but the changes may not mesh well together....particularly with the higher amounts of oak usually present. Also, reds tend to be more strongly flavored, tannins, more oak, and more body. Basically, it's not something that will automatically improve a wine and should not be thought of that way. Off flavors can certainly develop. There's a reason you'll be hard pressed to see a Gewürztraminer or aromatic whites aged sur lie. It apparently is not appealing. That being said, you could try splitting the Pinot and try sur lie aging a portion of it. I just wouldn't do it to a big, bold Cabernet.Simpsini said:
Last edited:
