Stirring during Primary Fermentation

[Scooter68]

Not sure about the over protection idea but, I tend to believe that during an active ferment there is sufficient gassing off occurring to protect the wine providing there is no breeze or other interference with the natural layer of gas on the surface of a fermentation bucket. However, when the fermentation slows, the blanket will dissipate and that would the time when a transfer to an airlocked carboy would be advised.

Tonight I should have taken a couple of photos to provide an idea of what I mean. Tonight less about 30 hours after I pitched the yeast in a batch of Mango/Pineapple Wine I stirred the must for the third time. This morning at 8:30 ( about 15 hours after pitching the yeast), there was about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch cap of foamed up pulp from the fruit. I stirred to get it moist again. About 5:00 this afternoon I did the same thing and the cap was about 1/2 to 3/4 inches thick. Then a few minutes ago at 10:15 I stirred it again and the cap was at least a inch thick. As soon as I stirred it the must frothed up like a root beer float with large and small bubbles from a very active fermentation. In conditions like this the gasses coming off are clearly going to form a blanket under that cloth cover. The pulp itself further supports that blanket and protects the developing must from too much oxygen. Now when this batch drops below about 1.020-1.010 and the bubbling after I stir is not there anymore, THEN I'll get it racked off the pulp and into a carboy. Oh, yeah as things progress and I know racking time is coming up. I'll not stir things off the bottom anymore so the pulp can drop out as I need it to.

I think the debate on this won't be solved by any of us but at least we can make informed decisions based on what works for us AND pass that reasoning and our results on to those just getting started in this hobby. After all isn't that what this forum is all about - to share and educate and bounce ideas around?

 

[balatonwine]

So you like a controlled o2 exposure during fermentation. But how ‘controlled’ does controlled mean? Punching the cap/stirring for specific lengths and frequency?

Controlled as anything that is predictable, consistent, intended, and/or measurable.

If you can measure it or predict it from known data (eg -- the O2 permeability of a flextank), you can learn the ideal exposure you want faster. Else you are left to far greater trial and error, which takes longer to perfect (maybe years, or decades .....)

sMacro oxygenation link isn’t working btw.

Thanks. I corrected the link in the original post. And here is the direct link as well:

https://morewinemaking.com/articles/Macro_oxygenation_fermentation

 

[Ajmassa]

Not sure about the over protection idea but, I tend to believe that during an active ferment there is sufficient gassing off occurring to protect the wine providing there is no breeze or other interference with the natural layer of gas on the surface of a fermentation bucket.

I’m positive I did not just come up with this theory on my own. Partly it’s from growing up with winemaking and partly my own winemaking experiences. But there was definitely an article that connected the dots for me. Gonna try and dig that up.
And btw the ‘over protective’ vs ‘building o2 tolerance’ is referring to red wine only.

 

[Ajmassa]

This is not the article I was referring to— but a good one nonetheless. It was definitely in a winemaker mag issue tho.

*silver lining— searching online and renewed my subscription that I found out has been expired for a while.

 

[Scooter68]

I’m positive I did not just come up with this theory on my own. Partly it’s from growing up with winemaking and partly my own winemaking experiences. But there was definitely an article that connected the dots for me. Gonna try and dig that up.
And btw the ‘over protective’ vs ‘building o2 tolerance’ is referring to red wine only.

Not taking 'issue' with your thoughts BTW. I'm more of the belief that the most important thing is solid safe practices that are repeated consistently. As long as it works for you that's the key. As you mentioned red wines (Grape wines) are a different creature from what I do all the time - Fruit wines - Blueberry, Peach, Blackberry, Black Currant, Mango. The needs and tolerances of these fruits is a bit different from a Grape wine where adding sugar is rarely done with a wine grape. And within these fruits there a wide variety of characteristics. Peach and Mango are fairly close in characteristics and nothing like a blueberry or blackberry wine.

What you advocate is not radical at all to me.

By the way I'm about to post a progress report on my Mango-Pineapple wine under the Country Fruit Wine making section. In it I'm posting photos of the thick cap of pulp and the bag is creating - to me that's an example of the built in Oxygen protection that an active ferment provides. Not all fermentations I do have a cap like this. Some have nothing but a few floating 'islands' of bubbles unless you give it a good stir and then in 5 minutes the foam dissipates.

 

[Ajmassa]

Not taking 'issue' with your thoughts BTW.

Didn’t think you were. If I seemed confrontational it wasn’t intentional. I was just posting some info I found while looking for a specific article. All good Scoot.

The needs and tolerances of these fruits is a bit different from a Grape wine where adding sugar is rarely done with a wine grape. .

Not gonna be rare this season! Fully plan on proceeding with the winemaking faux pas of bumping the sugar level! And the acid. And whatever else I need to. No health inspectors visit my house. And it’s my wine I will do whatever I want! And can’t wait!

I’ll give that mango thread a look-see. Sounds interesting.

 

[Scooter68]

In my early reading to learn about wine making I was wading through some heavy reading. They were clearly talking about grape wines and European standards. I didn't realize that at first and wondered... Adding sugar was spoken of as a crime, verboten in some circles and perhaps in some jurisdictions. Thankfully we don't have "Wine Police" here. And there would be almost no country fruit wines or they would be pretty wimpy if adding sugar was a no-no.

 

[Ajmassa]

In my early reading to learn about wine making I was wading through some heavy reading. They were clearly talking about grape wines and European standards. I didn't realize that at first and wondered... Adding sugar was spoken of as a crime, verboten in some circles and perhaps in some jurisdictions. Thankfully we don't have "Wine Police" here. And there would be almost no country fruit wines or they would be pretty wimpy if adding sugar was a no-no.

I think it’s a big no-no simply because of our location. Living in US- wine/winemaking is synonymous with California. And in Cali they have set standards for additions. The hoity toity vineyard areas don’t seem to struggle for ripeness. A good grower should be able to get high Brix with that locale. So there’s a limit to sugar additions for them since it shouldn’t be needed anyway. But the acid flip side of it - the struggle is real. And additions are common place and we don’t think anything if it.
And I’m pretty sure it’s kind of opposite in France. Where they can get good acid levels but struggle for Brix— and they have more relaxed sugar limits. And I’d bet the adverse for acid.
I listen to podcasts with winemakers at times. I’ve heard Napa guys scoff at the French for adding sugar and also heard Frenchies turn their noses up to tartaric additions.

 

[Scooter68]

That sound about right. And for grins... I saw a vineyard on the Rhine that mentions getting some root stock from the USA because of some blight or disease.

 

[Johnd]

I don't go nuts trying to keep my red wines from getting some oxygen exposure, in fact, like to make sure that they get some. My punchdowns are typically vigorous and no doubt introduce oxygen, a loose fitting cover over the vessels is my norm, racking out of the fermentation vessel and into carboys introduces oxygen as well. When pressing, buckets catching free and press run juice from the press are open topped through the whole process. Next couple of rackings are by gravity with splashing into the target carboys, as is the process of racking into barrels. Typically, the only vacuum racking I'll do will be to remove the wine from the barrel if it's not a 6 gallon, only because the bigger ones are harder to lift to rack by gravity. My last rack before bottling is also a splash racking. I believe that some O2 in the process is beneficial to red wines, to a point..........