Separate or Together? Fruit and Grape. Blackberry - Merlot?

[Fencepost]

I would like to make a Blackberry Merlot type of wine (actually a Cabernet/Blackberry). I am using a costco kit (low end) for the grape side and will be using cold pressed juice or frozen blackberries for the BB. The main question is to whether to ferment together or separate? I was planning on replacing some of the reconstitution water with the blackberry juice/berries. Thinking that this would add flavor and body to the kit. Any downside to fermenting together vs doing separate? I have the equipment/chemicals necessary to adjust pH if needed. Would want to keep the OG around 1.090 if possible (realizing the kit is probably designed to about that point and adding blackberry juice would increase it). I would guess that the "pros" or commercial wineries just make it separate and blend, but I'm trying to help the kit and maybe save a step.

I have made a number of kits and lots of blackberry wine previously and blended together for a wine that we enjoy. Was thinking doing it together could add the body to the kit and get the grape I like into the blackberry... and avoid the step of blending. Any ideas on amounts of BB juice to add to the kit? Any other downsides? Main concern is doing the kit separately, then blending, the cabernet would be a bit of a "thin" wine even with tweaks.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[cmason1957]

Biggest downside I can think of off the top of my head is that first question you asked, how much BB Juice to add to the kit. Guess wrong and you have a still thin wine. Second biggest (and this may not be a concern with BB Juice) is the amount of lees Blackberry wine can produce and losses from that.

I think if I wanted to do this, I would add extra tannin, like a tablespoon or two to the Cabernet, along with extra light oak for body enhancement, make the Blackberry wine very heavy as well, then decide on the blend after primary and secondary to get what I wanted. Let them age together for better integration. Still might not get a very heavy wine

 

[VinesnBines]

I've had good luck making a grapefruit juice/Sav Blanc blend by using store bought grapefruit juice to replace some or all of the reconstitution water. I used a low ABV kit for the Sav Blanc. It is a trial and error process. If you ferment together, I'd suggest to go slow on the blending to hit your desired SG. If you taste the blended juice as you go, you should get a good sense of how it will blend in the finished wine.

Of course if you ferment separately you will be able to blend after the fact but you may end up with excess Cab or Blackberry wine. Either method will work.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Of course if you ferment separately you will be able to blend after the fact but you may end up with excess Cab or Blackberry wine. Either method will work.

Agreed. If you don’t have sufficient quantities of juice and correct vessel sizes to handle rackings, I would throw everything together. Say for under 3 gallons total.

Since one component is a kit, I would ferment separately. Fruit and grapes can quickly overwhelm one another, meaning it might only take 5% of a fruit wine to make the blend taste like that fruit. All depends on the fruit. Example, I did a bench taste test on my Riesling and found 5% peach to be just right. After bottling though the peach is a little too much as it masks some of the other floral notes.

Second advantage is you can make a grape wine with a little bit of fruit blended in to add some flavor notes to the grape wine. On the other end you can make a fruit wine with a little grape blended in to give the fruit wine a little body. Even if you have wine leftover I would bottle as a pure varietal, it might not be a good drinker, but it might be good for topoff, or blending into future wines. In my case I have a dozen bottles of peach I will never drink, but use strictly for blending with future white wines.

 

[Christopher Anderson]

I would like to make a Blackberry Merlot type of wine (actually a Cabernet/Blackberry). I am using a costco kit (low end) for the grape side and will be using cold pressed juice or frozen blackberries for the BB. The main question is to whether to ferment together or separate? I was planning on replacing some of the reconstitution water with the blackberry juice/berries. Thinking that this would add flavor and body to the kit. Any downside to fermenting together vs doing separate? I have the equipment/chemicals necessary to adjust pH if needed. Would want to keep the OG around 1.090 if possible (realizing the kit is probably designed to about that point and adding blackberry juice would increase it). I would guess that the "pros" or commercial wineries just make it separate and blend, but I'm trying to help the kit and maybe save a step.

I have made a number of kits and lots of blackberry wine previously and blended together for a wine that we enjoy. Was thinking doing it together could add the body to the kit and get the grape I like into the blackberry... and avoid the step of blending. Any ideas on amounts of BB juice to add to the kit? Any other downsides? Main concern is doing the kit separately, then blending, the cabernet would be a bit of a "thin" wine even with tweaks.

Thanks for your comments.

Interesting that you are using the Costco kit. The Cab S? with double bags? I just received mine last week and was going to use Blackberries in one and black grape skins crushed from my local grocer, with the juice drained off for something else. Run them side by side and see what occurs. I was going to add extra tannin to one, but which one I have not decided. I am combining the fruit with the juice bag to the initial fermentation.
I also thought about using currants to the grape skin one unless someone smarter has a better idea.

 

[Fencepost]

Interesting that you are using the Costco kit. The Cab S? with double bags? I just received mine last week and was going to use Blackberries in one and black grape skins crushed from my local grocer, with the juice drained off for something else. Run them side by side and see what occurs. I was going to add extra tannin to one, but which one I have not decided. I am combining the fruit with the juice bag to the initial fermentation.
I also thought about using currants to the grape skin one unless someone smarter has a better idea.

Yes, the CS double bag kit. It should arrive Friday. I have blended in the past with CS and BB (called it a "Black Cab") but always did it after fermenting separately. I was planning on using about 20-25 lbs of blackberries. On the wines I have blended, I typically like about 25-35% grape in the blackberry, so I am thinking it may be too much Cab S in this blend if I just add the BB to the 6 gal Kit. After hearing from the experts, I am leaning towards making the 6 gal CS kit to 5 gallon (tweaking it with tannin, raisins and oak, and if necessary adjusting pH - did one similar in 2019 and it was really good in 2023!). Then making a separate 3 or 5 gallon Blackberry, then do the blend. I may just tweak the other kit with a BB fpac, tannin, oak, etc.

I've made FWKs with the skins and if you have them use them... though I am not sure how the store grape skins vs wine grape skins will stack up (they are different). Maybe someone has some info on that. Keep us posted

 

[Christopher Anderson]

Yes, the CS double bag kit. It should arrive Friday. I have blended in the past with CS and BB (called it a "Black Cab") but always did it after fermenting separately. I was planning on using about 20-25 lbs of blackberries. On the wines I have blended, I typically like about 25-35% grape in the blackberry, so I am thinking it may be too much Cab S in this blend if I just add the BB to the 6 gal Kit. After hearing from the experts, I am leaning towards making the 6 gal CS kit to 5 gallon (tweaking it with tannin, raisins and oak, and if necessary adjusting pH - did one similar in 2019 and it was really good in 2023!). Then making a separate 3 or 5 gallon Blackberry, then do the blend. I may just tweak the other kit with a BB fpac, tannin, oak, etc.

I've made FWKs with the skins and if you have them use them... though I am not sure how the store grape skins vs wine grape skins will stack up (they are different). Maybe someone has some info on that. Keep us posted

WM81 has stated that this is not all science but also hunches, thoughts, trial and error or whatever one may be upon one. As I am relativity new to making wine, but really good at faking it all and enjoying coloring out side the box (what box?), I am game to anything. HOWEVER, I do not like to waste $$$. So, wine is useful, but terrible, nasty wine is not ever wanted.