Probably killed the yeast

[gdfernan]

Completely newbie here.

Was making a wine starter to restart stuck fermentation. The starter was bubbling nicely, when i thought i should make it even more active. since bread rises nicely at 110F, I heated the wine starter to the same temp. Now it looks like I have killed the yeast. Is there anything I can do to resurrect the starter?

Thank you for any advice.

 

[sour_grapes]

Can you just start making another starter? Do you have more yeast?

 

[Jovimaple]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[ChuckD]

Welcome to WMT.

If this is your biggest screw-up you’re doing better to than me! Give it a
Little sugar, a pinch of yeast nutrient, and wait a few hours. With luck Maybe a few of them survived. Otherwise it’s a new starter.

 

[BigDaveK]

Welcome to WMT!
Yeast are amazing little creatures and can adapt to most environments - except high heat. Above 100F or so they start packing for the trip to yeast heaven.

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT!

When I make a starter, I use water heated to ~95 F, add sugar, nutrient, and yeast, and let it set on the kitchen counter for at least 4 hours. It will cool down to room temperature, but if the yeast is viable it's reproducing like crazy. Then I put the starter next to the fermenter (in my case, in the cellar) overnight, where it will cool down to the temperature of the must. In the morning swirl to mix, then pour carefully down the inside of the fermenter so it doesn't spread into the wine. Do not stir for 24 hours.

I've had 100% success with this method over the last 1.5 years, and typically can smell fermentation within 6 hours, and have visible activity by the following morning.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Welcome to WMT
An option if you don’t have more yeast is to try making a starter from the lees in an old ferment (this one). Reproducing yeast need sugar, oxygen and a mix of nutrient/ vitamins. Simply mixing spent yeast into sugar water won’t work well.

 

[gdfernan]

Thank you everyone for all of your advice and encouragement. I followed your suggestion and added a little pinch of yeast nutrients and crushed raisins. After 12 hours of cooling it back to room temperature, I can see some bubbling and when I keep the year close to the vessel, hear some bubbling as well.

The plan is to keep the starter for another 24 hours, and then pour it into the must.

After 24 hrs, if the activity has died down, I will probably add more yeast to the starter and see what happens.

I will keep you updated on the progress.

 

[gdfernan]

Hope you can provide me with one more clarification. I used Red Star Premier Rouge Levure Seche wine yeast originally, and for the starter in mentioned in the above posts. If I add some bakers yeast, will the wine yeast die off, or will I have two different colonies of yeast growing together?

Thank you for any advice.

 

[Ohio Bob]

It’s not mandatory to wait another 24 hours (36 hours in total?). If all you did was add nutrients then you didn’t kill the yeast after all. So feel free to reset your clock back to when you first made the starter.

 

[Jovimaple]

A lot of kits say to sprinkle the yeast on the must, without making a starter. Other recipes say to rehydrate the yeast in some 95° F water for 10 or 15 minutes, then add to the must. So as @Ohio Bob says, no need to reset the clock. Or, as @Rice_Guy says, use some of the existing lees.

Personally, I generally follow the same method as Bryan @winemaker81 to make a starter and have had success every time.

The Finer Wine Kit instructions say that yeast are happier and multiply faster in colonies, so that is the reason for carefully pouring the starter down the side of the bucket and don't stir for 24 hours after that.

I wouldn't add bakers yeast to wine. Different types of yeast bring out different characteristics. One strain will probably kill off the other at some point (which shouldn't be an issue, but may be a waste of yeast).

If you are truly stuck and nothing else works, I would suggest getting some Lalvin EC-1118 and make a new starter out of that. EC-1118 is the workhorse yeast that many kits include, because it is very successful.

Good luck!

 

[HillPeople]

I've never had any problems with the starter I make.
Mix into 1/2 cup of 105 F water 1 1/2 times the amount of yeast you will be using of Go-Ferm.
Stir in the yeast.
Let it sit and cool down until there is a nice head of bubbles.
Add some of your must a tablespoon at a time about 4 times in a half hour.
If the starter has cooled to within 15 degrees of your must temperature you can pour it - no agitation.

 

[Rice_Guy]

If you are truly stuck and nothing else works

if nothing else works, you’re done and have created a spelt stable beverage . . . the US market sells more table wine than dry wine

 

[Rice_Guy]

Hope you can provide me with one more clarification. I used Red Star Premier Rouge Levure Seche wine yeast originally, and for the starter in mentioned in the above posts. If I add some bakers yeast, will the wine yeast die off, or will I have two different colonies of yeast growing together?

Yeast are classified related to kill factor. (dominance in a mixed culture) The bakers yeast shouldn’t have the ability to kill other strains, it would die off. Bakers yeast dies off above 7 to 8% ABV, why use it unless you want to use as nutrient.

 

[winemaker81]

Hope you can provide me with one more clarification. I used Red Star Premier Rouge Levure Seche wine yeast originally, and for the starter in mentioned in the above posts. If I add some bakers yeast, will the wine yeast die off, or will I have two different colonies of yeast growing together?

A quick primer on wine yeast -- any wine, beer, or bread yeast will eat sugar in a substance, emitting CO2 and alcohol. Wine yeast is a subset of that group, chosen for it's alcohol tolerance, the pleasing (to humans) aroma and flavors produced, and flocculation (the lees [yeast hulls and fruit solids] compact well). Beer yeast are chosen as they have qualities make good beer, and bread yeast the same for bread. Note that beer and bread yeast have much lower alcohol tolerance, so getting a wine to ferment to completion using them is unlikely. Plus there are probably thousands of strains that are not considered beneficial by humans.

Any wine, beer, or bread yeast will work -- my first wine was rhubarb made with bread yeast. However, if you want a better wine, use wine yeast. These strains (and there are dozens of them) are selected for the properties that make good wine.

Yeast is a living organism, and in recent years I consider that point far more than I did in the past. This is why I make the overnight starter -- the yeast reproduces well in what for it is a more ideal environment than wine. Overnight the starter temperature equalizes to the must, so when adding it to the must, there is little or no temperature shock, like there would be adding a 90+ F starter to a 70 F must.

Commercial wine yeast can be sprinkled on top of the must or stirred in. This works. However, an overnight starter works better, and produces a faster "ignition".

Why is a fast start good? Yeast has a host of competitors who'd LOVE to eat that sugar! Very few, if any, are anything we humans will appreciate. By getting the ferment off to a roaring start, the wine yeast stomps out or even kills it's competitors, so we have a much better chance at a good outcome.

IF you have activity, you do not need to add anything else. Add that starter to the wine and it will probably ferment.

 

[BigDaveK]

The Finer Wine Kit instructions say that yeast are happier and multiply faster in colonies, so that is the reason for carefully pouring the starter down the side of the bucket and don't stir for 24 hours after that.

Just thinking out loud.... I've seen this before. Seems to me the yeast are an example of the "Tragedy of the Commons". Each cell is concerned about it's own survival and probably won't cooperate with it's neighbors to share limited resources. Realistically, it's all microscopic and probably doesn't matter either way.
Done thinking out loud.

 

[Bill Pet]

I have never understood why it is necessary to make a starter. Does it affect favor or the quality of the wine? I've been making several cheap kit wines (with tweaks) and wines from frozen juices for 10 years, several batches a year. I have never made a starter. I always just sprinkle the yeast on top of the must, making sure the must is above 70 degrees (a mix of cold and hot tap water) and left it alone. It has never taken longer than a maximum of about 6 hours to get going and I usually see some action in just a couple of hours.

 

[ChuckD]

I have never understood why it is necessary to make a starter. Does it affect favor or the quality of the wine? I've been making several cheap kit wines (with tweaks) and wines from frozen juices for 10 years, several batches a year. I have never made a starter. I always just sprinkle the yeast on top of the must, making sure the must is above 70 degrees (a mix of cold and hot tap water) and left it alone. It has never taken longer than a maximum of about 6 hours to get going and I usually see some action in just a couple of hours.

I think they help for more difficult musts… low pH, high OG etc. and they definitely help with starting a stuck fermentation. It’s the closest thing to fool-proof. I just got used to using them.

 

[ChuckD]

Dang phone is acting up… deleted a double post again

 

[Jovimaple]

I have never understood why it is necessary to make a starter. Does it affect favor or the quality of the wine? I've been making several cheap kit wines (with tweaks) and wines from frozen juices for 10 years, several batches a year. I have never made a starter. I always just sprinkle the yeast on top of the must, making sure the must is above 70 degrees (a mix of cold and hot tap water) and left it alone. It has never taken longer than a maximum of about 6 hours to get going and I usually see some action in just a couple of hours.

Before the yeastie beasties kick in and start doing their job, the must is on borrowed time for other microorganisms getting hungry to eat the sugar and spoil the batch. So it's good to get a robust yeast colony going as soon as possible.

With kits, I generally follow the directions and, like you, I have never had an issue. But in making Skeeter Pee and some other wines from fruit, I am much more comfortable with an active starter to give the yeast a boost in getting the job done. I don't want the must sitting there for too long without the protection of the CO2 the yeast produce.