New and trying to do it old style first

[astrologica]

I want to learn how the old guys made it first before getting into all the chemicals. Is that weird and is there anyone else who does/did this?
We're talking fruit, sugar and yeast. I am using an airlock but nothing more for now.
Suggestions?

 

[Rocky]

There are others on the forum who eschew chemicals. Nothing wrong with what you want to do but I would not recommend starting there. I would make a kit or two and then go "old fashioned." That, of course, is up to you. When you say "fruit" are you including grapes or do you mean wine from fruit other than grapes? If you really want to do it the old way, get a few (2 or 3) lugs of grapes or a couple of buckets of berries and go for it. I understand that you want to avoid chemicals, but you will be dealing with wild yeast that is on the fruit and this could cause you problems. Potassium Metabisulfite is your friend and I would recommend using it to inactivate the wild yeast before pitching a cultured yeast.

 

[astrologica]

It's clear I spend too much time on facebook when I try to 'like' someone's response elsewhere.
I'll try the metabisulfite (sp?) first in the future.
I'm all for washing and rewashing everything (many years in the restaurant industry to thank for that) so I'm hoping any wild strains would help instead of hinder but I'll try that one anyway.
Anyone with advise on doing it old style is always welcome to speak up since I'm a total greenie at this point.

 

[pete1325]

The (old) guys I make wine with each year do it old school......crush/destem/press....no nutients, yeasts, stabilizers, clarifiers. They do however sanitize with K-meta everything before it touches the must/wine. The wine is drinkable. That being said I also make wine (from fresh juice) and add the "chemicals" and the wine comes out better and more consistant from year to year.....I'm not say, I'm just saying!!

 

[winemaker_3352]

This has always been a touchy subject - best answer is - there is no wrong answer. Make it how you want to - there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

That being said - there are a few experienced folks on here that make wine with no chemicals - I would wait and see what they say.

As a new winemaker - it might be easier to start with a kit to get the basically knowledge down, understand the process, etc - once you know that then dive into making wine with no chemicals.

 

[tonyandkory]

Okay to be clear I use the chemicals now (sparingly) but when I started I was totally against it..

most of our batches went pretty well but we had some huge failures. (off flavors) (infections)

Our wine did not start becoming great until we controlled the fermentation environment.

just my 2 cents

 

[robie]

Using native (wild) yeast is OK if you know that the wild yeast in your area will make good wine. That is very key. Understand there are lots of different varieties of yeast, so you will be taking a chance the first few times you make wine, so I do respect what you want to do but I seriously have to ask, "Why?".

Try to make the best wine you can. Today, we have a lot more help in doing so than they did in the old days. In the old days they made some really good wine, but they also had a lot of failures, many of which we can afford today.

Regardless, let us know how it goes and have fun. As already mentioned, you are not wrong for what you want to do.

 

[Marshall]

I'm a new boot but IMO wine making started over 4000 years ago and chemicals can't have been around for more than 20-30 years(?). I can't see myself using chemicals. My first batch of concentrated juice, sugar and bread yeast went off without a hitch. That being said, I think airlocks, sanitizers, and hydrometers are important. Chemicals may make wine predictable and consistent, but I like doing thing different each time. The same thing every time gets boring for me.

 

[Dend78]

I'm a new boot but IMO wine making started over 4000 years ago and chemicals can't have been around for more than 20-30 years(?). I can't see myself using chemicals.

very true, but we also used to dump slop jars out in the streets, use lead paint, play with mercury in science class, used asbestos everywhere, had computers that took up entire rooms, and the mullet was a stylish haircut.

Chemicals may make wine predictable and consistent, but I like doing thing different each time. The same thing every time gets boring for me.

predictable and consistent wines each time make it easier for you to make changes as you go, rather than "wow what is that terrible flavor?" its more like "hmm i taste the sorbate in this one"

im not saying anyone is wrong or right...im just sayin


Dend78

 

[joeswine]

The way they were

TO EACH HIS OR HERS OWN,BUT EVEN BACK IN OLD ITALY (MODERN TIMES)THE BEST WINERIES USE SOME CHEMICALS TO PROTEST AND PROLONG THE LIFE OF THE WINES,TIMES MY HOW THEY HAVE CHANGED,THEY ALSO DIDN'T DRINK THE WATER FOR FEAR OF GETTING SICKTHE CORRECT ANSWER WAS ALREADY ADDRESSED,"WHY"

 

[robie]

Just me, but what I would shoot for is to make a wine that tastes like "the old style".

For instance, wine makers have not always made whites the way they are predominantly being made today. Today we crush the grapes, then immediately press off the skins, seeds, and pulp. We let that settle for 12-24 hours, rack off just the clean juice and ferment just that juice.

In many locals, they used to ferment the crushed grapes, then later press off the rest, just like we do reds these days. (I hear some places still do it this way.)

Of course that is just an example. I am sure one could mix "old style wine" with modern sanitation and protection methods and achieve the best of both worlds.

 

[JohnT]

Very interesting thread!

Like others have said, there is nothing wrong with trying to do things the "old fashioned" way. It really all depends on what your mind set is.

If tradition and nostalgia are most important to you, then seek out the methods of your forefathers. You will find that this can be an experience that can tie family together!

If, on the other hand, you simply want to adopt a method for making wine that will increase your chances at a great result, then modern science is your answer.

I come from a long line of winemakers. I started getting into winemaking mostly to try to bond with my father and grandfather. We always used the old school method in those early days. We had some successes, and had some horrible failures. The failures didn't hurt so much because we always had a good family experience to look back on.

With the failures, I always made it a point to find out exactly what went wrong, then how to either fix the problem and/or prevent it from ever happening again. By doing this, we slowly evolved toward modern methods.

I always thought that my grandfather would be the first to protest, but when he found that these methods were working, he would simply say "if we only knew about this back in the day!".

I guess the point I am trying to make is this... Tradition is a good thing, but I have found that (like most things) a little science now and then doesn't hurt anything.

 

[robie]

Great post and well said, John.

 

[astrologica]

To be clear, the answer to why is: I'm new and I want to get down the basics first BEFORE messing with chemicals. The fruit is free so I'm on a learning curve and don't see dropping a huge dime in a down economy to throw it all away because I didn't know what I was doing.

I didn't even mention this: I live in an old (being SLOWLY renovated) farmhouse with no AC or electric heat. Wood stove, you know very bad for fermentation temp. I'm learning so just for now I want to stick to the basics and then expand.
For the record, my first car was a beater not a brand new Rolls because I was going to beat the crap out of that thing. I just didn't know it at the time.

 

[Dend78]

I'm on a learning curve and don't see dropping a huge dime in a down economy to throw it all away because I didn't know what I was doing.

heard that! I tired making half gallon batches with bakers yeast, water, fruit and sugar, these turned out okay but for sure needed a lot of help on the back end. granted they turned out okay I think my first batch of Dragons Blood turned out really well, and my apple pie wine is moving along great. I find sticking to the already posted recipe's works really well and you can change it to suite your needs.

as for cost though you can go throw down 30 bucks at the local brew shop and have enough chemicals, (acid blend, sorbate, k-meta, yeast nutrient, yeast energizer, bentonite, sparkolloid, pectic enzyme) to last you several batches.

For sure grab some k-meta though good cleaner for almost everything you use for wine making.

 

[robie]

Don't get mad at us, we are just trying to figure out why you want to do that. Now we know.

OK, if you don't use sulfites to stabilize the wine, always keep it as cold as possible and drink it fairly soon, within a few months. If it starts smelling or tasting off or starts foaming, just throw it away. It might be a better wine if you could let it age some, but that's not going to happen this time around... that's OK.

If all works out for you, next time you can get a little Kmeta and some sorbate and you should be able to keep the wine much longer. Actually, if you keep the wine nice and cold (cold, not cool), you can skip the sorbate. Just understand if you don't use sorbate and you let it warm up to room temperature for even a short time, it WILL start fermenting again and the container could burst or pop the cork.

Let us know how it all turns out for you. You really are going to be doing it THE OLD FASHIONED WAY. (Nothing wrong with that!)

 

[astrologica]

Thanks, I didn't mean to come across as Brewzilla.
Okay, so tonight I worked up the beans to use the hydrometer. It's at the top well above the 1.000. But the hydrometer is still floating and not sitting on the bottom of the tube so I guess that's good. I tasted it and it seems to pack a punch but it's kinda boring. I guess it doesn't help that I've turned into a wine snob over the years (on a beer budget, mind you ;0)
Can I just leave it in the glass jug with the fruit and airlock and swirl it every day or how long before I HAVE to do something else with it? I kinda want to be lazy with it for now and not move it into anything if I don't have to. All of them seemed to seriously stop or appear to stop fermenting when the temp outside dropped. We aren't using electric heat in our old farmhouse but will start using a woodstove soon enough. Temp outside tonight is going to be 55'. Has been in the 40's outside at night lately and I noticed this evening that most of the fruit in the original batch dropped to the bottom today.
I'm so new it hurts.

 

[JohnT]

OK,

Here are a couple of recomendations. I am sure others will chime in as well

1) At 1.00, keeping in mind that your hydrometer might not be THAT accurate, you are probably finished with fermentation. Temerature is not that important now, but try to keep the temp from any drastic changes or dropping below freezing.

2) At this point, I would try to keep the wine steady and not stir it. Your goal at this point should be to get rid of the "gross lees" or sediment (dead yeast, pulp, etc that is currently in your wine). For the next couple of days (perhaps even a week or two) keep the wine still and allow the wine to clear ans settle. You should notice a thick layer of "schmootz" at the bottom of your jug. When the wine looks clear, and the layer of schmootz has formed at the bottom, its time to rack!

To rack, get yourself a length of clear hose (you can get this at lowes) and syphon the wine into another, clean, empty jug. If you do not have another jug, then sypon into a pail, then return the wine into the original jug (after it has been cleaned).

While syphoning, be careful to try and leave the thick layer at the bottom behind. This layer should be disgarded. Once syphoning is complete, add a little k-meta and top off the new jug with some simular store bought wine (never water). It is now very important to kee the jug as full as possible as any prolonged exposure to air can ruin your wine.

3) Your wine might be boring, but the wine is young. if you want to add a little more complexity, add about 2 or 3 oz of medium toast oak cubes before you top off your new jug.

Hope the above helps.

johnT.

 

[astrologica]

John, great advise! We already racked the first one on Wednesday night. That night we also started the first batch of cider wine. I took a jug of cider n split it between two gallon jugs, warmed 32 oz of brown sugar in water on the stove, added to the cider, covered with cheese cloth, added yeast the following night. Bubbling like crazy. Adding airlocks tonight.