RJ Spagnols Need a primer on RJS!

[sour_grapes]

My LHBS is Northern Brewer. When I started making wine from kits a couple of years ago, they mostly carried Cellar Craft, so that is what I mostly made. They then picked up WineXpert, so I started doing some of those. It appears that recently they have dropped Cellar Craft, and started carrying RJ Spagnols extensively.

I need a primer on the various series of RJS. Specifically, I am trying to figure out the difference between the En Primeur line, and the Cellar Classic Winery Series. They seem to be the same price, so those of us who (stupidly?) use price as a proxy for quality could be confused.

Thanks!

 

[BarBarrique]

Posted a thoughtful reply, and, it got tossed. Sorry

 

[barbiek]

I thought that cellar craft was one of RJs lines I'm probably wrong cuz it's getting late lol night

 

[jsiddall]

Here is my ranking of RJS kits:

En Primeur (18 L, 8 week with skin pack)
Cellar Classic Winery Series (18 L, 6 week with skin pack)
Cru Select (16 L, 6 week, some with skin pack)
Cellar Classic (15 L, 6 week)
Grand Cru International (12 L, 5 week, some reds with skin pack)
Grand Cru (10 L, 4 week)
Glad Hatter (9 L, 5 week, reds have skin pack)
Vino Del Vida (9 L, 4 week)
Orchard Breezin' (5-7 L, 4 week)

Then there is also Cru Specialty (port, ice wine etc.) but those aren't really comparable. Price wise they seem to be around the Cru Select but make only 3 gal instead of 6.

Regarding En Primeur, the consensus seems to be there is relatively little incremental difference be them and the Winery Series.

At my LHBS the En Primeur are significantly more expensive ($10-$20) than the Winery Series. If yours store prices them the same I would buy the En Primeur!

 

[Boatboy24]

I thought that cellar craft was one of RJs lines I'm probably wrong cuz it's getting late lol night

I think that's Cellar Classic

To the original question: the only Winery Series (Cellar Classic) kit I've made is the Super Tuscan. And it was so good, I have a 2nd batch about ready to bottle. I've done two En Primeur kits - Dashwood NZ Pinot Noir, and Amarone. Both are over 2 years old now. The Pinot is pretty bad, IMHO (they now offer a Chilean PN). The Amarone is getting pretty good, but it is taking its sweet time. Both kits are astringent, almost a little sour.

I've done a few LR kits from Spagnols, which I believe are equivalent to the En Primeur line. Most of the reds come with the dried skins ("Genuwine Grape Skins"). I've done the 2014 Torrontes (terrible, but I think that may be my fault), 2014 Monastrell Petite Verdot (good, but way too young), 2015 Shiraz-Viognier (very young, but very promising) and 2015 Aglianico (also very young, but very promising).

Having said all that, I think the EP kits either aren't worth the money, or simply take a long time to come around. With only one WS kit under my belt (twice), I think they are well worth the money. EP seems to be a couple bucks more.

PS: I just looked at Northern Brewer's site and their prices are quite high. You might want to check out some of our sponsors, or FineVineWines.

 

[sour_grapes]

Posted a thoughtful reply, and, it got tossed. Sorry

Thanks for trying. I am guessing that you the same BarBarrique as on Winepress? Welcome to WMT!

 

[sour_grapes]

Here is my ranking of RJS kits:

Thank you!! That was very helpful. I realize I could have likely extracted the same info from their literature, but your organization and synthesis of this was very convenient, and much appreciated.

At my LHBS the En Primeur are significantly more expensive ($10-$20) than the Winery Series. If yours store prices them the same I would buy the En Primeur!

The list price of the Eclipse red wines, all of the En Primeur wines, and about half of the RJS Winery Series weighs in at $180. The white Eclipse wines, the other half of the Winery Series, and the upper end of the WE Selection wines list for $170.

(As a side note, the white RQ's are listed at $200!)

 

[sour_grapes]

I think that's Cellar Classic

To the original question: the only Winery Series (Cellar Classic) kit I've made is the Super Tuscan. And it was so good, I have a 2nd batch about ready to bottle. I've done two En Primeur kits - Dashwood NZ Pinot Noir, and Amarone. Both are over 2 years old now. The Pinot is pretty bad, IMHO (they now offer a Chilean PN). The Amarone is getting pretty good, but it is taking its sweet time. Both kits are astringent, almost a little sour.

I've done a few LR kits from Spagnols, which I believe are equivalent to the En Primeur line. Most of the reds come with the dried skins ("Genuwine Grape Skins"). I've done the 2014 Torrontes (terrible, but I think that may be my fault), 2014 Monastrell Petite Verdot (good, but way too young), 2015 Shiraz-Viognier (very young, but very promising) and 2015 Aglianico (also very young, but very promising).

Having said all that, I think the EP kits either aren't worth the money, or simply take a long time to come around. With only one WS kit under my belt (twice), I think they are well worth the money. EP seems to be a couple bucks more.

PS: I just looked at Northern Brewer's site and their prices are quite high. You might want to check out some of our sponsors, or FineVineWines.

Thanks for the review, Jim. This info is very helpful. I think perhaps I will christen the RJS efforts with either the Super Tuscan (as I have heard nothing but raves here) or the Winemaker's Trio (Cab, Syrah, Zin), which is on sale right now.

As for price: with the recent change for MAP as well the change to the lines that my LHBS carries, I certainly will re-examine my supplier. Shipping, is, of course, an issue. I have used Doug a number of times for things that I could not get locally. The prices on Northern Brewer's website are list prices, but they give a 10% discount for AHA members, and they run frequent in-store as well as internet/in-store discounts. Some (but not all) of these promotions are even "stackable," so I have saved as much as 33% off of list price, though generally more like 15 or 20%.

 

[terroirdejeroir]

I haven't done any of the En Primeur kits, largely due to lackluster reviews on this site. However, I would give enthusiastic endorsement to the Winery Series line, the Cellar Classic, and the Cru Select International with skins.

I have done the Super Tuscan and the Rosso Grande Eccelente, both are very good. The Rosso Grande 16L kit is also a very good value. Finally, I did the Okanagan Pinot Noir (currently on sale at FVW) and thought it was the best budget-level kit I have ever done.

Also very happy with the RQ Nero D'Avola kit.

 

[ibglowin]

I have made several of the EP Whites and they turned out great. No experience with any of the reds.

 

[vernsgal]

Spagnols has been my main wine kit for the last 6 years. I have done a lot of the winery series but only a few of the primeurs basically because from the ones I made I prefer the winery series.
I'm not good at describing wines but here's my picks:
Winery series-Aus. Cab. Sauv is one of my favorites.There is so much flavor in your mouth and has a great full body.Was Good at 9 mos but great at a year.
Aus. Shiraz okay but lacking (for me) in the flavors I expect from a shiraz
Pinot Noir is good . I like it for a change from the heavy bodied wines.Flavor is distinct
Ital.Amarone my friends say it was good but I never really liked at any age. Made it til 14 months Gave most away
Super Tuscan I'm making my 1st. It's bulk aging still and is just about at 12 months. I added a bit more oak tannin.It tastes good but am waiting to bottle and then try at 18 months
Valpola was weak in taste.Couldn'y catch the flavor it was listed as having
Rosso Grande was bleh at 9 months good at a year but awesome at 18 mos. Friends didn't believe it was kit made.I had to pour from the bottle to prove it what was in the dacanter.
Chilean Chard all I can say for it is yum. Mines at 9 mos. now and could certainly be drank but I'm giving it the year to bulk age.(As you can see, reds are my preference but this one came to me as a gift and I'm not disappointed)

En Prem Cab Sauv is good but I definitely prefer the winery series one because it has more taste and body
Amarone was weak in body. It's flavors were good but not what I was expecting.

I always go to the winery series now over the En Prem.This is just from trying the 2 En Prem. so maybe I didn't find the one for me but I stop looking when I find what I like.
I have the Spain Grenache Syrah from winery series as my "new to try this year" but is only at the 4 mos mark so I can't really give an opinion yet.

 

[geek]

Paul, as a side note, the reds EP bring 18L of juice plus the grape skins pack...to my recollection, someone could correct me.

 

[BarBarrique]

I should write my posts in a text program, then copy, and, paste, but I am too lazy. So, I will try again.
It is my experience that the RJS Winery Series produces good wine, but these kits are not the equal of Cellarcraft Showcase series. While these Winery series kits often sell for the same price as Cellarcraft Showcase, retailers have told me that they wholesale for less.
I am not saying that I don't like the winery series, because I do, but I expect to pay less for them.
Now for the En Primeur; I have made two of this series, the New Zealand Dashwood Pinot Noir, and, the Woodbridge Cab/Sauv. Both of these kits are now discontinued. My Pinot is now more than 3 years old, and, it is finally an interesting wine. Early on it had "cough syrup" cherry fruit flavours that I didn't like, but now it is a food friendly wine with good varietal characteristics.
The Woodbridge Cab/Sauv was good when young, but developed more complexity with age, and, after 2 1/2 years is a very interesting, and, again a food friendly wine with an acidity that makes it an excellent pairing with food.
Initially I was disappointed with the En Premeur series, but after aging them, I think that they will be an ongoing part of my winemaking.
I read on another post in this thread that retailers are pricing the En Primeur similarly to WE Eclipse, well I can say that my suppliers are pricing them for less.

Cheers;

Bar

 

[zalai]

Paul, as a side note, the reds EP bring 18L of juice plus the grape skins pack...to my recollection, someone could correct me.

The Winery Series also say it is 18l kit , but it is including the grape skins pack .
Th grape skins packs are not equal . The EnPrimeur has 250g DRIED grape skins . The Winery Series has crushed grape skins . Last time I made this kit the skins were in two jars . (I think 2 x 1kg ) More juice vs more grape skins .

 

[Boatboy24]

@BarBarrique :

Very glad to hear your thoughts on the Dashwood PN. I'm just not ready to give up on it, and it sounds like maybe I shouldn't. Thanks for the input.

 

[jsiddall]

I must say I am a bit disappointed to hear that the En Primeur are not all favorites as I recently picked up an EP Amarone. I have also heard they take a long time to get good, and I have come across a number of posts from people who have made the RJS EP and the CC Showcase Amarones and prefer the RJS EP. Maybe it will work out OK.

I have only made one RJS, a WS Super Tuscan, which is OK after 2 years. I also think the CC Showcase kits are better, and they are priced higher than the WS at my LHBS. Strange that some stores price them the same.

Regarding pricing, wow some of those kits are expensive in the US. My LHBS has the RJS WS Super Tuscan on for $111 CDN ($84 US) this month. It is about a 10 minute drive from my house, and there is no tax on kits here, so that is the price I pay.

 

[geek]

The Winery Series also say it is 18l kit , but it is including the grape skins pack .
Th grape skins packs are not equal . The EnPrimeur has 250g DRIED grape skins . The Winery Series has crushed grape skins . Last time I made this kit the skins were in two jars . (I think 2 x 1kg ) More juice vs more grape skins .

most of those with grape skins call for 18L but in reality they're 16L of juice plus supposedly 2L of grape skins. I was told by 2 different suppliers that the EP is the exception in which these kits are indeed 18L of juice PLUS the grape skins pack but I cannot confirm since I never bought any EP kit.

 

[Brian55]

most of those with grape skins call for 18L but in reality they're 16L of juice plus supposedly 2L of grape skins. I was told by 2 different suppliers that the EP is the exception in which these kits are indeed 18L of juice PLUS the grape skins pack but I cannot confirm since I never bought any EP kit.

I can confirm this. The EP kits come with 18L of juice.

 

[vernsgal]

Found this on the 2. I think they're both good quality kits. It'll come down to your tastes. I don't think you can go wrong with either/or. I had just noted my personal preferences

En-Primeur has married tradition with innovation and offers a collection of classic old world favourites and exciting new world wines to be enjoyed young or after several months of aging.
En-Primeur 8 week 18L
A new standard in wine excellence! NO added sugar. NO preservatives. NO chemicals. 18L of 100% pure varietal grape juice and concentrate selected from vineyards around the world and GENUWINE Winery Dried Grape Skins create an ultra premium wine with an aromatic bouquet, rich lush colour and mouth feel you have come to expect of an ultra premium wine.

Winery Series Kits Winery Series 6-8 week 16L
These red and white wines are produced by fermenting grape juice on crushed grape skins, seeds and stems. This allows the winemaker to extract deep colour, chewy tannins, tantalizing flavours, and complex aromas to produce richly structured wines. Winery Series raises the bar of quality to an all new level! Kits contain 18 litres of super premium varietal grape juice and grape skins.

 

[BarBarrique]

@BarBarrique :

Very glad to hear your thoughts on the Dashwood PN. I'm just not ready to give up on it, and it sounds like maybe I shouldn't. Thanks for the input.

Well, I guess I should elaborate on my opinion of the Dashwood PN. It has improved to the point where I will serve it to friends as an accompaniment to food, but it is not the PN that I thought it would be. The Woodbridge Cab/Sauv is a more approachable wine.
My revelation about the EP series of kits is that they apparently produce wines of a different style than those of other premium grape pack kits.
I will continue to make some EP kits in the future because I like to have wines of different styles on hand, particularly some food friendly ones, as cooking is a big hobby of ours.

Cheers

Bar