We all have to remember how we started. John got to learn from some of the old masters, how it was done from way way back. I envy him for that, but he had somebody to help him along. Now he is using their techniques plus adding in some of the modern stuff to (I'm sure) make some super wines. Many of us started out just hearing about how you can make some wine. Lots of people are finding their way here and looking for ways to come up with some wine. The first time is a bit scary and you don't want to ruin what you are trying. So they use some cheap ingredients and maybe come up with a halfway decent drink. They try again and after a few trys, get to thinking I wonder what would happen with some good fruit of some kind. These are the folks we are trying to help on here. We all have noticed people coming on with a problem, we give a few answers and never find out how things came out. I believe we fix a lot of problems, although there are also lots that the people just give up on. Lots of great folks on here willing to help. Just glad I can sometimes be a part of it. Also glad I have them all to fall back on when I need a little help. Arne.