winemanden
Senior Member
That's true. Some people will say 10-11% is the limit for Bakers yeast, but it's the reason - back in the olden days - we used to manage 17-18% if we were lucky.
Back sweetening
- Thread starter Hillcapper
- Start date
Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
winemanden
Senior Member
If you want to get the taste nearer to Port, you should back sweeten with red grape concentrate instead of sugar. Problem is, you've got to watch the acid, or it may go out of balance.
"Real" Port tastes the way it does because they stop the ferment early, with spirit when there is a lot of sweet unfermented grape juice still in it.
For extra missing taste, tread your grapes.
I also read that the grapes are late harvest, Brix 26-30, so that when the yeast are "gently" killed at 10-12 brix there's still a boatload of sugar.
I've got about a dozen bottles of vintage port (with serial #'s) on the shelf but I'm afraid to try them - I might go crazy and go off on that tangent. Not ready yet.
I've got about a dozen bottles of vintage port (with serial #'s) on the shelf but I'm afraid to try them - I might go crazy and go off on that tangent. Not ready yet.
I read an article on Port styles, and realized mine tastes like a Ruby port, so I got the effect I should have expected, not what I thought I was making. From that POV, the experiment was a success.
Another thing...
I knew next to nothing about port when you posted your "issue". Did some reading, especially about Portuguese port making, and learned a lot. I wouldn't have gone on that tangent without you, so thank you!
We feed off each other and we support each other. It's a beneficial process.
If anyone isn't learning something new each week on this forum, you are missing a golden opportunity!
Just thinking out loud, Bryan. Many "port" recipes ferment to completion and then have brandy added. Seems to me that's just a fortified wine. Heck, I can get high ABV with step feeding. Why not start high, like 1.120, and then add brandy around 1.040 to kill the yeast and mimic "real" port? Since I don't do grapes I'm thinking blackberries, elderberries and/or elderflowers, raisins and/or concentrate, and maybe even banana. Basic Plan 1.0 - I'm sure modifications will follow.
Dammit, the seed has been planted.
@BigDaveK, the difference is barrel aging. I wanted barrel aged wine for the port, but have no need for 14 gallon of port.
It's a matter of scale. For a Port house which makes thousands of gallons per year, they produce many 225 liter barrels of port, and blend to hit one of possibly several targets.
For a home winemaker who wants 4 to 8 liters of port, it just doesn't work. I took 6 bottles of wine, backsweetened, and added EverClear 151 to hit 20% ABV.
The number of batches I'd have to cycle through in a small barrel in 3 years is daunting. I barrel age my heavy reds for a year, so it would take 3 years before I was in a position to age the Port wine the way I want.
Although, the tiny barrels (in comparison to my current 54 liter barrels) wouldn't take as much time to get the concentration that requires a year in my current barrels.
Bottom line is that it's a nice idea, but I don't see it working. I don't see a way to produce exactly what I want, although again, the experiment is worthwhile, and I'll probably do it again.
It's a matter of scale. For a Port house which makes thousands of gallons per year, they produce many 225 liter barrels of port, and blend to hit one of possibly several targets.
For a home winemaker who wants 4 to 8 liters of port, it just doesn't work. I took 6 bottles of wine, backsweetened, and added EverClear 151 to hit 20% ABV.
The number of batches I'd have to cycle through in a small barrel in 3 years is daunting. I barrel age my heavy reds for a year, so it would take 3 years before I was in a position to age the Port wine the way I want.
Although, the tiny barrels (in comparison to my current 54 liter barrels) wouldn't take as much time to get the concentration that requires a year in my current barrels.
Bottom line is that it's a nice idea, but I don't see it working. I don't see a way to produce exactly what I want, although again, the experiment is worthwhile, and I'll probably do it again.
This is kind of funny, Bryan - I haven't had port since my college days in the 70's. I drank 2 bottles of tawny port in an evening at a math club party, sick for 2 days, thought I was going to die. Cheap stuff, something like Gallo. The bottles of vintage port on my shelf were from a relative's estate and every time I'm tempted to open one I have a flashback to my near death experience.
With your experience I'm sure you'll make something you're very happy with. The time thing is definitely a PITA. For my part, whatever I do it's still going to be a country wine - and I'm fine with that. We're having fun and that's never a bad thing.
I had a similar experience with blended American whiskey. To this day the smell makes me nauseous. However, I can drink Bourbon, Scotch, Irish whiskey, Japanese whiskey, and Canadian whiskey with no problem. I'm guessing it's the blended whiskey/American oak combination that triggers me. Whatever oak is used for the other whiskies doesn't do it, and Bourbon (aged in American oak) doesn't do it either.
If you had Gallo, real Port is completely different -- the smell and taste are worlds apart.
I have an idea -- before inoculating next fall, I'm considering drawing off 1 liter of juice and freezing it, and using that to backsweeten the next Port. I'll have to bump the ABV higher to compensate for the dilution, but that's not a problem.
winemanden
Senior Member
It saves having to wash themI'll not drink anything that touched MY feet!!
winemanden
Senior Member
When you thaw it, if you catch it before it's completely thawed out, you'll get mainly concentrated juice with plain ice left. That should be a lot better for back sweetening your Port!
I've got a REALLY strong stomach ... but I think you got me!It saves having to wash them
I'm sure they're different but it's so hard to forget that college experience.
I've got about a dozen bottles total of these two. Checked online today and they're going for a hundred bucks! Holey Moley! Out of my price range! Now I'm curious and may have to try one. If you lived down the road from me I'd give you a bottle or two.
When you thaw it, if you catch it before it's completely thawed out, you'll get mainly concentrated juice with plain ice left. That should be a lot better for back sweetening your Port!
That's a good idea! I noticed last year a couple of my frozen ingredients had crystal clear ice while thawing. Yes, it's all about the timing.
- Joined
- May 31, 2022
- Messages
- 52
- Reaction score
- 73
Is there a reason to use wine conditioner versus sugar, or the other way around? I want to back sweeten my FWK Riesling. I know the WE Riesling kit uses juice, which is more like the way Riesling is made in Germany, but I couldn't figure out how to get an appropriate juice/concentrate, hence the choice between sugar and conditioner. Do they taste different? I'm not worried about refermentation or any of that, but just how it tastes over time.
Wine conditioner is sugar syrup with a small amount of sorbate to keep the package from fermenting. The taste will be the same as sugar, although table sugar is typically cheaper.
Note -- various sources state that sorbate is not necessary when using wine conditioner. As some of our members have discovered, this is not true. According to Winexpert, the wine conditioner contains enough sorbate to keep the package of conditioner from fermenting, but not enough to prevent the wine it is added to from fermenting.
