RJ Spagnols What would you do?

[Dantheman]

Hey guys so I have a rjs Amarone select currently in bulk for the next year, I followed the instructions to the T..
Well I got the itch and I’m planning on ordering another Amarone kit but this time I would like to throw all the bells and whistles at it and after the year is up compare the Two
So my question is what would you guys do differently to make the best possible wine from this kit
Replace the yeast?
Add tannin during fermentation?
Seed packs?
More skins?
Opti red?
Oak? Bypass the clearing agents?
MLF?
I’m open to everything, let me hear your ideas!

 

[Bmd2k1]

I'm getting ready to start my 1st Amarone and here's my plan:

- RC212 yeast
- add 1cup raisins and 1cup dried tart Michigan cherries during fermentation
- use the provided oak chips during fermentation
- bulk age for 6-12months on 1 med+ toast American oak spiral

Cheers!

 

[Gilmango]

So my question is what would you guys do differently to make the best possible wine from this kit
Replace the yeast? I'M NOT YELLING BUT ANSWERING IN ALL CAPS SO AS TO DIFFERENTIATE MY RESPONSES FROM YOUR QUESTIONS AND NOT FORGET ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS.

Add tannin during fermentation? I THINK TANNINS ARE BEST ADDED TO THE SECONDARY AND ONLY AFTER TASTING. THE AMARONE MAY ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH TANNINS SO BE SURE TO TASTE FIRST.

Seed packs? NOT A BAD IDEA, PERHAPS ORDER SO SEEDS AND EXTRA SKINS FROM LABEL PEELERS, AS THEY NOW SELL THEM SEPARATE FROM THEIR FINER WINE KITS.

More skins? SEE ABOVE, NOT A BAD IDEA AT ALL. HOWEVER, YOU CAN ALSO DO WHAT @Bmd2k1 SUGGESTED AND JUST ADD RAISINS AND DRIED TART CHERRIES (I LIKE TO LOOK UP GRAPE CHARACTERISTICS, USUALLY ON WINE FOLLY, AND LEAN INTO THE COMMON FRUIT DESCRIPTORS BY ADDING SOME DRIED FRUIT WHOSE FLAVOR IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE VARIETAL. HERE CORVINA IS THE MAIN GRAPE IN AMARONE AND IT IS ASSOCIATED WITH TART CHERRY The Comprehensive Guide to Corvina | Wine Folly .

Opti red? SURE, GIVE IT A TRY.

Oak? AS WITH TANNINS, WITH OAK I'D LET TASTE BE MY GUIDE, MAYBE JUST START WITH WHAT THE KIT INCLUDES, WHEN YOU RACK AND SAMPLE AFTER ITS BEEN BULK AGEING THEN SEE IF YOU THINK IT WOULD BENEFIT FROM MORE OAK. ADD IT SLOWLY, YOU CANNOT TAKE IT OUT.

Bypass the clearing agents? ABSOLUTELY, I BYPASS ALL BENTONITE, K+C, AND SORBATE, ONLY USING KMETA (WHICH OF COURSE IS NOT A CLEARING AGENT)

MLF? CANNOT DO MLF WITH A KIT WINE, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS. EDIT - JUST CLARIFYING THAT YOU CAN MLF A FINER WINE KIT, HOWEVER, FWK KITS, LIKE ALL WINE KITS ARE SOLD WITH ACIDS IN BALANCE, SO MLF STILL NOT RECOMMENDED THERE.

I’m open to everything, let me hear your ideas! EXTENDED MACERATION FOR SURE, AFTER 1 WEEK OF PRIMARY, SEAL THE PRIMARY UNDER AIRLOCK AND DO AN EM FOR A FURTHER 3-5 WEEKS. YOU NEED A SEALABLE PRIMARY TO DO THIS.

DIFFERENT YEAST LIKE RC-212 OR BM-4X4, ESPECIALLY IF KIT ONLY INCLUDES EC-1118.

YEAST STARTER AND YEAST NUTRIENT(S) IS ANOTHER IDEA.

LOTS OF BULK AGEING BEFORE BOTTLING SO THAT YOU CAN SKIP THE CLEARING AGENTS, AND ALSO TASTE THE WINE AND DECIDE IF IT DOES NEED MORE TANNIN OR OAK OR ANYTHING ELSE.

OF COURSE IF YOU TRY ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS AT ONCE YOU WON'T NECESSARILY KNOW WHICH VARIATION HELPED OR HURT YOUR FINAL PRODUCT (COMPARED TO YOUR 1ST BATCH), SO DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO CHANGE EVERYTHING UP AT ONCE.

 

[Dantheman]

So my question is what would you guys do differently to make the best possible wine from this kit
Replace the yeast? I'M NOT YELLING BUT ANSWERING IN ALL CAPS SO AS TO DIFFERENTIATE MY RESPONSES FROM YOUR QUESTIONS AND NOT FORGET ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS.

Add tannin during fermentation? I THINK TANNINS ARE BEST ADDED TO THE SECONDARY AND ONLY AFTER TASTING. THE AMARONE MAY ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH TANNINS SO BE SURE TO TASTE FIRST.

Seed packs? NOT A BAD IDEA, PERHAPS ORDER SO SEEDS AND EXTRA SKINS FROM LABEL PEELERS, AS THEY NOW SELL THEM SEPARATE FROM THEIR FINER WINE KITS.

More skins? SEE ABOVE, NOT A BAD IDEA AT ALL. HOWEVER, YOU CAN ALSO DO WHAT @Bmd2k1 SUGGESTED AND JUST ADD RAISINS AND DRIED TART CHERRIES (I LIKE TO LOOK UP GRAPE CHARACTERISTICS, USUALLY ON WINE FOLLY, AND LEAN INTO THE COMMON FRUIT DESCRIPTORS BY ADDING SOME DRIED FRUIT WHOSE FLAVOR IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE VARIETAL. HERE CORVINA IS THE MAIN GRAPE IN AMARONE AND IT IS ASSOCIATED WITH TART CHERRY The Comprehensive Guide to Corvina | Wine Folly .

Opti red? SURE, GIVE IT A TRY.

Oak? AS WITH TANNINS, WITH OAK I'D LET TASTE BE MY GUIDE, MAYBE JUST START WITH WHAT THE KIT INCLUDES, WHEN YOU RACK AND SAMPLE AFTER ITS BEEN BULK AGEING THEN SEE IF YOU THINK IT WOULD BENEFIT FROM MORE OAK. ADD IT SLOWLY, YOU CANNOT TAKE IT OUT.

Bypass the clearing agents? ABSOLUTELY, I BYPASS ALL BENTONITE, K+C, AND SORBATE, ONLY USING KMETA (WHICH OF COURSE IS NOT A CLEARING AGENT)

MLF? CANNOT DO MLF WITH A KIT WINE, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS.

I’m open to everything, let me hear your ideas! EXTENDED MACERATION FOR SURE, AFTER 1 WEEK OF PRIMARY, SEAL THE PRIMARY UNDER AIRLOCK AND DO AN EM FOR A FURTHER 3-5 WEEKS. YOU NEED A SEALABLE PRIMARY TO DO THIS.

DIFFERENT YEAST LIKE RC-212 OR BM-4X4, ESPECIALLY IF KIT ONLY INCLUDES EC-1118.

YEAST STARTER AND YEAST NUTRIENT(S) IS ANOTHER IDEA.

LOTS OF BULK AGEING BEFORE BOTTLING SO THAT YOU CAN SKIP THE CLEARING AGENTS, AND ALSO TASTE THE WINE AND DECIDE IF IT DOES NEED MORE TANNIN OR OAK OR ANYTHING ELSE.

OF COURSE IF YOU TRY ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS AT ONCE YOU WON'T NECESSARILY KNOW WHICH VARIATION HELPED OR HURT YOUR FINAL PRODUCT (COMPARED TO YOUR 1ST BATCH), SO DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO CHANGE EVERYTHING UP AT ONCE.

Thanks for the great reply,
I’m thinking as of now, replace the yeast with rc212
Add extra raisins and a seed pack
And do a extended maceration for 6 weeks
Skip all clearing agents
Depending on taste add some oak sprials
And bulk for the long haul
12 month bulk
6 month bottle

 

[Dantheman]

I'm getting ready to start my 1st Amarone and here's my plan:

- RC212 yeast
- add 1cup raisins and 1cup dried tart Michigan cherries during fermentation
- use the provided oak chips during fermentation
- bulk age for 6-12months on 1 med+ toast American oak spiral

Cheers!

I like the tart Cherry idea, I’m going to look into it, thanks!

 

[winemaker81]

- use the provided oak chips during fermentation

Fermentation oak is called "sacrificial tannin", as the oak tannin extracted from it drops, preserving the natural grape tannin. This is a good thing. Also, the fermentation oak helps preserve and stabilize color, but doesn't add an appreciable amount of oak flavoring. That comes from aging oak.

For aging oak, I prefer cubes as I can customize the amount. I use less oak (1 to 1.5 oz per 19-23 liters) and leave it in until bottling -- there is evidence the extraction is complete around 3 months, but leaving the oak in the wine has a smoothing effect. There's no right or wrong answer here, as all the oak adjuncts work. Different folks have different likes, and valid reasons for using every one of 'em.

The following wine is a blend of FWK Forte Merlot, Petite Sirah, and Syrah, made with 2 skin packs per kit, and barrel aged. I use Scottzyme ColorPro fermentation enzyme, which extracts amazing color, even from skin packs. This is a very rich wine. The only wine I didn't get good color extraction from is Grenache, which doesn't have a lot of color to extract, although the wine (at 5 months old) is also rich.




RC-212 has high nutrient requirements and will produce H2S if it has insufficient nutrient. FWK Forte reds include RC-212, but also include sufficient nutrient so I've not had nor heard of problems. If making a different brand of kit that includes EC-1118, I'd add extra nutrient after 48 hours. H2S can be treated, but having done it a couple of times, I recommend preventing it rather than treating it.

I suggest following the FWK protocol -- make an overnight starter and inoculate the day after reconstituting the kit. When the SG drops to between 1.020 and 1.010, give the wine a final stir, and airlock it. On Day 14, unseal and rack the kit. The wine should be fermented dry, and the gross lees dropped. Anything that drops after this is fine lees (yeast hulls) and can be ignored until bottling time.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Fermentation oak is called "sacrificial tannin", as the oak tannin extracted from it drops, preserving the natural grape tannin. This is a good thing. Also, the fermentation oak helps preserve and stabilize color, but doesn't add an appreciable amount of oak flavoring. That comes from aging oak.

For aging oak, I prefer cubes as I can customize the amount. I use less oak (1 to 1.5 oz per 19-23 liters) and leave it in until bottling -- there is evidence the extraction is complete around 3 months, but leaving the oak in the wine has a smoothing effect. There's no right or wrong answer here, as all the oak adjuncts work. Different folks have different likes, and valid reasons for using every one of 'em.

The following wine is a blend of FWK Forte Merlot, Petite Sirah, and Syrah, made with 2 skin packs per kit, and barrel aged. I use Scottzyme ColorPro fermentation enzyme, which extracts amazing color, even from skin packs. This is a very rich wine. The only wine I didn't get good color extraction from is Grenache, which doesn't have a lot of color to extract, although the wine (at 5 months old) is also rich.

View attachment 100255


RC-212 has high nutrient requirements and will produce H2S if it has insufficient nutrient. FWK Forte reds include RC-212, but also include sufficient nutrient so I've not had nor heard of problems. If making a different brand of kit that includes EC-1118, I'd add extra nutrient after 48 hours. H2S can be treated, but having done it a couple of times, I recommend preventing it rather than treating it.

I suggest following the FWK protocol -- make an overnight starter and inoculate the day after reconstituting the kit. When the SG drops to between 1.020 and 1.010, give the wine a final stir, and airlock it. On Day 14, unseal and rack the kit. The wine should be fermented dry, and the gross lees dropped. Anything that drops after this is fine lees (yeast hulls) and can be ignored until bottling time.

ColorPro looks to be pricey, eh! How much goes in a 6gal batch ?

 

[winemaker81]

ColorPro looks to be pricey, eh! How much goes in a 6gal batch ?

I used 1 tsp per batch. For kits with skin packs, less may work ok. I was guessing based upon the amount used for fresh grapes.

 

[AR324]

Hey guys so I have a rjs Amarone select currently in bulk for the next year, I followed the instructions to the T..
Well I got the itch and I’m planning on ordering another Amarone kit but this time I would like to throw all the bells and whistles at it and after the year is up compare the Two
So my question is what would you guys do differently to make the best possible wine from this kit
Replace the yeast?
Add tannin during fermentation?
Seed packs?
More skins?
Opti red?
Oak? Bypass the clearing agents?
MLF?
I’m open to everything, let me hear your ideas!

I’ve only been doing this for three years so take this for what it’s worth.

I tend to take a minimalist view, whether kit, bucket or grapes. For kit or bucket I always add skins for reds. Some fermentation oak. A little ColorPro or opti red. Ferment. I have been skipping the clearing agents and letting it and bulk age with Kmeta every 3-4 months.

After awhile, I’ll add oak cubes if I’m looking for a heavier red. For a lighter red I may skip the cubes and only use one grape skin pack. I only add post fermentation tannins if needed.

However, I’m still learning about judging when post fermentation tannins might be helpful based on my tasting the wine. I don’t have years and years of experience.

I’m skeptical that the type of yeast changes a kit all that much but others may have better taste buds than me. I usually go with rc212 as it has always done right by me.

Good luck.