What size fermenters

[LCW]

I have 63 lbs.of muscatines and 42 lbs.of seyval blanc.The fermenters I have are 6 gallon size.My question what size fernenters do I need to do a good job.Will doing insmall batches work ?LCW

 

[Boatboy24]

For about $20 you can get a 20gal Brute trash can. They are "food grade" and give you plenty of room for the cap.

 

[JohnT]

you should end up with between 7 and 8 gallons (closer to 7). You should have a primary fermentor with at least 11 gallons of capacity. Since nothing ever comes in an 11 gallon size, a 15 gallon or a 20 gallon brute (as boatboy suggests) should be used.

 

[LCW]

Would you try to do the 62 lbs.of muscadines in one fermenter or split them up?LCW

 

[sholomy]

i fermented 700 lbs in small 5-6 gallon batches

 

[sholomy]

in carboys actually; i was aiming for a rose so i skipped skin time altogether. if youre skipping skin time you can ferment in carboys.

 

[GreginND]

I would prefer to do them together, but splitting them will work.

 

[JohnT]

in carboys actually; i was aiming for a rose so i skipped skin time altogether. if youre skipping skin time you can ferment in carboys.

I would advise against this. Yeast NEEDS O2, especially during lag phase. Fermenting in a closed carboy will greatly limit the amount of O2 your yeast will get. Ferment in an open container. A brute trash can (unused, of course) is the best "Bang for your buck".

 

[sholomy]

not a closed carboy i cover it with a cheesecloth and rubberband; this is what jeff cox suggests in from vines to wines my go to book

 

[WI_Wino]

I would advise against this. Yeast NEEDS O2, especially during lag phase. Fermenting in a closed carboy will greatly limit the amount of O2 your yeast will get. Ferment in an open container. A brute trash can (unused, of course) is the best "Bang for your buck".

As both a home brewer and home winemaker, it is confounding to me to hear everyone on WMT say "yeast need O2, keep the lid open and stir it" vs. everyone on home brew talk say "keep the lid tight for 3 weeks, never look at it or you are going to oxidize your beer or risk infections".

I ferment my beers in pails/carboys that are airlocked with great success. I have also brewed beers w/o an airtight seal and they turned out great too.

I have fermented wine kits under airlock but stirred occasionally. I have vever let a ferment start and roll for 2+ weeks w/o any stirring.


So does anyone know if wine yeast actually has a higher oxygen requirement than beer yeast?

 

[JohnT]

As both a home brewer and home winemaker, it is confounding to me to hear everyone on WMT say "yeast need O2, keep the lid open and stir it" vs. everyone on home brew talk say "keep the lid tight for 3 weeks, never look at it or you are going to oxidize your beer or risk infections".

I ferment my beers in pails/carboys that are airlocked with great success. I have also brewed beers w/o an airtight seal and they turned out great too.

I have fermented wine kits under airlock but stirred occasionally. I have vever let a ferment start and roll for 2+ weeks w/o any stirring.


So does anyone know if wine yeast actually has a higher oxygen requirement than beer yeast?

Beer is a differnt story than wine. First, you are talking about much lower levels of sugar and also much less yeast to get the job done. The O2 that is already in your beer must (or wort) should be enough. Additionally, wine has a much higher acid content that helps to further gaurd against bacteria. This means that it is much safer to perform an open fermentation.

Yeast does need O2 for reproduction. The higher levels of yeast mean that more O2 is a benefit.

 

[jswordy]

There are two phases to the lives of yeast in winemaking: aerobic and anaerobic. The aerobic (with oxygen) portion occurs in the fermentation bucket. In this phase, yeast are actively splitting and multiplying to take advantage of all the resources suddenly available to them. This multiplication is an aerobic activity. Oxygen is your friend here. No airlocks, lots of air, and plenty of stirring.

The second phase is anaerobic (without oxygen) and happens in the carboy. Oxygen becomes the enemy of your yeast and your wine. Here, yeast are closed off from the outside world, and that's the true main purpose of the airlock, to keep them sealed anaerobically. The other major airlock purpose is to seal the wine from taking on oxygen and oxidizing.

In anaerobic growth, the yeast slow their reproduction as resources diminish and get down to the work of digesting what remains, helping the wine to become mellower and more homogenized. These are senior citizen yeast now, not concerned about having kids and living the good life.

They'll even digest other yeast, or dead yeast, which is why leaving wine on the lees a long time is part of some recipes. Because they are slower, they produce less CO2, which is why the wine needs protection from the air to keep it from oxidizing.

Good wine demands that both processes be present. Besides, I never could understand why someone would do primary in a carboy, when it is so much easier to clean the gross lees that comes from primary out of a bucket than a carboy.

 

[JohnT]

I could not have said it better myself JS.

 

[WI_Wino]

Beer is a differnt story than wine. First, you are talking about much lower levels of sugar and also much less yeast to get the job done. The O2 that is already in your beer must (or wort) should be enough. Additionally, wine has a much higher acid content that helps to further gaurd against bacteria. This means that it is much safer to perform an open fermentation.

Yeast does need O2 for reproduction. The higher levels of yeast mean that more O2 is a benefit.

I agree that there are usually lower levels than wine but lately higher ABV beers are becoming all the rage. See Dogfish Head's 120 minute IPA, 15-20%!!! That's the extreme but > 8% are much more prevalent than in the past. But why would that matter for the first couple of days?

Beer dry yeast typically comes in packets of 11.5 grams compared to 5 grams for wine. Also the mantra that yeast starters are required is big in the home brew community, not so much in home winemaking. So I think beer is typically pitched with more yeast than wine.

I didn't think about the acid differences, that has to help keep bacteria at bay.

Another thought, home brewers go to great lengths to keep ferment temps down, 68-60 for ales and 50s for lagers. Perhaps the lower temps are more conducive to bacterial infection? The beer yeast are bred for that temp, they get rocking and rolling just as fast as my wine yeast do at 75+ degrees.

 

[WI_Wino]

There are two phases to the lives of yeast in winemaking: aerobic and anaerobic. The aerobic (with oxygen) portion occurs in the fermentation bucket. In this phase, yeast are actively splitting and multiplying to take advantage of all the resources suddenly available to them. This multiplication is an aerobic activity. Oxygen is your friend here. No airlocks, lots of air, and plenty of stirring.

The second phase is anaerobic (without oxygen) and happens in the carboy. Oxygen becomes the enemy of your yeast and your wine. Here, yeast are closed off from the outside world, and that's the true main purpose of the airlock, to keep them sealed anaerobically. The other major airlock purpose is to seal the wine from taking on oxygen and oxidizing.

In anaerobic growth, the yeast slow their reproduction as resources diminish and get down to the work of digesting what remains, helping the wine to become mellower and more homogenized. These are senior citizen yeast now, not concerned about having kids and living the good life.

They'll even digest other yeast, or dead yeast, which is why leaving wine on the lees a long time is part of some recipes. Because they are slower, they produce less CO2, which is why the wine needs protection from the air to keep it from oxidizing.

Good wine demands that both processes be present. Besides, I never could understand why someone would do primary in a carboy, when it is so much easier to clean the gross lees that comes from primary out of a bucket than a carboy.

I get this and I don't disagree, hence my original question. Why does beer ferment so well w/o that additional O2? I have not found any scientific reasoning for this, only speculation on my part.

 

[sholomy]

I never could understand why someone would do primary in a carboy, when it is so much easier to clean the gross lees that comes from primary out of a bucket than a carboy.

the reason i used a carboy is because i wont use plastic and a 10 gallon steel pot costs about 100 dollars. for reds sitting on the skin a carboy really wont do but for whites or a rose there is nothing wrong with using a carboy. jeff cox actually suggests it for whites saying the narrower top will help prevent over oxidation. as far as cleaning i havent had the slightest problem. i rack the wine, pour out the lees then wash with a washing cane swirl, pour repeat and its sparkling clean.

 

[LCW]

Thanks all.LCW

 

[LCW]

If I go with the 6 gal.fermenters how many lbs.of muscadines would be best to put in each bucket allowing enough space for the cap?LCW