Water chemistry?

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Bingo... but I see what you're saying, thanks for pointing that out.



Pretty sure Brew & Wine supply uses flat rate shipping boxes, which beats most other shipping charges. I bought pretty big packages at the time to make the shipping more acceptable for my situation.. I ended up spending more, but I've yet to need to restock much of anything. I'll probably need Fermaid-O before anything else though.

Fermaid-O is half the YAN by numbers, but because it's assimilated more efficiently, it stretches farther than it sounds(2-3x). This is something you can see Seth and I going back and forth on in various threads on the forum. I assume it's worth more (3x) than he does (2x), but I hover over my fermentations smelling for H2S and have used this experience to come to my conclusion. Seth adds more Fermaid-O than I do, because he uses the lower factor for the efficiency, but we both seem to churn out pretty good finished products using different approaches.
Thanks for the response.

Are there are any estimates for YAN value in kits? Based on your original post, there doesn't seem to be a way to measure it at home. Do you assume a middle of the road value?

Going with your 3x value, how much Fermaid O do you add? Do you split your additions?
 
I think there may be a way to do this at home, but it would require some specialized equipment at the value of a few hundred dollars or more, and the specific know-how to use those pieces of equipment. It's more of a winery-scale sort of thing still. I'm waiting for a way to measure YAN at home, with baited breath.

I don't make many kits, honestly. I think I've only ever made one.

How much I add depends on what I'm working with, and it takes a little research coupled with a few years of experience.

Every batch will have different YAN levels, so I start by looking for published (read: not a blog or personal take, but scientific white papers) evidence of the amount of YAN in the produce that I'm working with and couple this research with a physical take of the fruit. Is it optimally ripe? Or was it picked early? Is there a lot of visual disease or pest pressure indicators on the produce. From there, I can feel comfortable roughly scaling the fruit using the research as '100%' and scaling back based on any deficiencies I've found.

The second part of this is looking at the yeast I'm using and where it falls on the scale of low-medium-high in the chart, in that Yeast Nutrients post. That scale somewhat directly relates to necessary YAN levels needed for those yeast to ferment ~25 brix without issue. I say somewhat because some of this research is still being done or hasn't been published for the general public. But if the yeast requires more nutrients for optimal performance than what I've guesstimated the fruit to contain, I know I need to be a little more heavy handed with the Fermaid-O and not hold so strictly to the 3x efficiency rating.

Once I've determined that much, I look at the amount of sugar I'm trying to ferment and where that is in relation to the yeast nutrient requirements, as well as is it over or under the 25 Brix that the yeast nutrients as scaled to. That can push or pull on the overall amount of Fermaid-O I'll be using; if it's under 25 I can get away with less but if it's over 25 it's going to be more nutrient needed.

Knowing that most fermentations need at least 200 ppm YAN, but most don't need over 350 ppm, and basing these assumptions along the low-medium-high scale used for the yeast chart, I can ballpark the amount of YAN I'll need to supplement by subtracting the assumed YAN level of the fruit from where my guesstimate put me. This is general YAN though, so then I can divide that by my efficiency factor to adjust for organic/Fermaid-O supplied YAN.

So then I have an idea of how much YAN the fermentation will need, but this is in no way a 'hard number'. Because Fermaid-O is assimilable farther into fermentation than inorganic nitrogen, I split this total into 3 additions - one after the lag phase, and the other two at 1/3 sugar breaks. But, the catch is, that I watch the efficiency of that first addition. Did the ferment make it from the lag phase to the 1/3 sugar break, without any H2S, without appearing to stall, without any issues? If it did, I'm generally in the right ballpark for all my calculations. If it didn't, if there's H2S or if the cap sinks on me or doesn't reform after a vigorous stirring -then I know I'm off some and need to compensate on further nutrient additions so I don't ruin the batch with fermentation difficulties.
 
Last edited:
That all makes sense. I figured that working with produce would give you a better chance to coming up with a starting point if you know where to look. I doubt I'll find any info on my inexpensive white kit. Maybe if I contact Winexpert?

Thanks for taking the time to walk me through your process. I've got a lot to learn, which is just fine by me. That's a big part of the enjoyment for me.
 
I sent an email to the [email protected] email address asking for the YAN level for my kit. I'm not expecting much, but it can't hurt to ask.

The next topic I've been researching is sulfite levels at bottling. Looks to me that the surefire way to determine the proper addition amount is to measure free SO2 and pH levels and then plug them into a calculator, using the appropriate contribution factor for the type of addition (campden vs. K-meta). Is that correct?
 
Most campden tablets are k-meta, in tablet form versus powder. Occasionally you will find some that are Na-meta, instead.
 
Pretty sure Brew & Wine supply uses flat rate shipping boxes, which beats most other shipping charges. I bought pretty big packages at the time to make the shipping more acceptable for my situation.. I ended up spending more, but I've yet to need to restock much of anything. I'll probably need Fermaid-O before anything else though.

Fermaid-O is half the YAN by numbers, but because it's assimilated more efficiently, it stretches farther than it sounds(2-3x). This is something you can see Seth and I going back and forth on in various threads on the forum. I assume it's worth more (3x) than he does (2x), but I hover over my fermentations smelling for H2S and have used this experience to come to my conclusion. Seth adds more Fermaid-O than I do, because he uses the lower factor for the efficiency, but we both seem to churn out pretty good finished products using different approaches.
I put my order in a couple days ago and it should be here tomorrow. I added a couple extra packets of yeast to have on hand as well since they were on sale and it helped fill up the shipping box.

The email receipt does not list what I ordered and the From: doesn't mention Brew & Wine Supply at all. I guess that might not be uncommon for smaller retailers, but it struck me as odd.
 
Just wanted to follow up. My order came in just fine, but things got put on hold with the arrival of a new baby. I just got a chance to start the batch on Sunday. I used the GoFerm as planned and topped off with R/O water. I was planning on adding Fermaid O at the end of the lag phase, but when I got home from work less than 24 hours after pitching the yeast, it was already bubbling away. I'll try to catch it at the 1/3 mark for the Fermaid O addition, but given how quickly it took off, even in the 64 degree basement, I'm wondering if it is really necessary.

The process was super easy compared to brewing. Even with the GoFerm prep, I had put everything away within an hour.
 
Yea, beats a six hour all grain brew session, that's for sure. Just worried that I'm getting lazy in my beer brewing since the wine making takes less time. But you still can't beat brewing a batch and drinking it 3 weeks later (force CO2 in keg).
 
Pretty much, plus if you are making wine from juice or some sort of grape product, you starting YAN should not be that bad.. So, it should not be THAT expensive.

I tend to buy fermaid in bulk since I make a lot of mead...:p
 
Gravity was down to 1.058 last night from 1.092, so I added the Fermaid O. There was a scary moment when I made the addition. It hissed and foamed on top, just like I had opened a soda. My brain immediately thought it was going to be like a boilover during brewing, and it was one of those slow motion things where I knew I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Luckily, it calmed back down within a couple seconds, so I popped the lid back down and it started bubbling again right away.
 
The yeast is still going strong. Gravity was down to 1.012 yesterday. I snuck a small sample from the hydrometer test tube and I thought the flavor was good. Still a little sweet since it hadn't finished fermenting yet, but I think I'm really going to enjoy it. I'll rack it over tonight if it is down below the magic 1.010 by then.

I think the next time I make another white I'll stick it in my swamp cooler like I do with my beer. Swamp cooler = fermenting bucket inside a giant tote filled with water and swapping out frozen water bottles to keep it cool. I'd like to slow it down a little more to help retain more of the fruity compounds.
 
Life got in the way so I didn't get to rack it until this afternoon. Gravity was down to 1.000. I will sample the last inch of the hydrometer sample after work.

I had used my hydrometer the other day to take the OG reading for my IPA, so my mind was expecting the hydrometer to float itself up once I got the tube most of the way full. I was mindlessly tapping on it before realizing that it was doing what it was supposed to do. :)
 
My two cents: I use Poland Spring water. Hasn't let me down yet, unlike distilled water. The last and only time I ever used it I got a stuck fermentation. I had to rack, add tons of O2, and pitch again. I lost so much flavor that day....anyway it was enough for me to stick with spring water.
 
I had another learning lesson yesterday evening. I went about degassing, not really knowing what to expect. I started at a slow speed and didn't see much action. I turned it up a little more and saw some activity. I cranked it up even more and soon it looked like someone had dropped a Mentos in diet coke. I probably lost a couple cups, but it is still slightly above the shoulder of the carboy.

The good news is that the wine is really starting to clear already. I'll probably let it sit for about a month or so and see where it's at.
 
Also, which in retrospect I should have expected, the small sample I stole from the hydrometer tube before degassing had several carbonic bite. The taste was good up front, but the finish was rough. Acidic/twangy/tart. If I would have thought about the carbonic bite angle, I would have let it sit a while to see if it improved, but I'm not overly concerned.
 
Back
Top