Understanding PH

[ibglowin]

You want to "drop acid" which would then raise the pH (less acidic) so you want the Potassium Carbonate. The addition of Acid (of any type) would do the reverse.

 

[drainsurgeon]

You want to "drop acid" which would then raise the pH (less acidic) so you want the Potassium Carbonate. The addition of Acid (of any type) would do the reverse.

TYVM! I thought that was right but the local wine shop told me the opposite. I came home this afternoon with both and tried the Calcium Carbonate in a glass first, then into the primary and the pH went from 3.1 to 3.5 with 3 teaspoons into 6 gallons. Mission accomplished. Now, what to do with the fermented Skeeter Pee at 2.7. According to Stressbaby I use the Potassium Carbonate "Post ferment". They didn't have any so I'll have to do some searching.

 

[dorfie]

I would not adjust the Ph of the skeeter pee at all. The recipe is pretty solid without adjusting the Ph, and since you are sweetening it the low Ph is offset by the sweetness. i am concerned if you raise the Ph you will remove the "lemon tartness" of the wine.
the Ph guidelines are only that, guidelines. yes wines are normally within a certain range, but the range is relatively wide, and there are outliers, where the wine tastes best at a lower Ph than normally recommended, like Skeeter Pee, just my two cents.

 

[drainsurgeon]

I would not adjust the Ph of the skeeter pee at all. The recipe is pretty solid without adjusting the Ph, and since you are sweetening it the low Ph is offset by the sweetness. i am concerned if you raise the Ph you will remove the "lemon tartness" of the wine.
the Ph guidelines are only that, guidelines. yes wines are normally within a certain range, but the range is relatively wide, and there are outliers, where the wine tastes best at a lower Ph than normally recommended, like Skeeter Pee, just my two cents.

Thanks very much. I just back sweetened it with 6 cans of Cranberry concentrate and 2 cups sugar to 1.01 yesterday. It's already clear as a bell but I'll wait about 2 weeks to bottle just to make sure. I'll leave the pH alone as advised. Taste's pretty good already!

 

[drainsurgeon]

Just found an interesting read on TA vs. pH on Jack Keller's site. He prefers to stay at 3.4 or below for most of his wine's with 3.5 being his limit. It's from his blog on Sept 30 of 2014 if you care to read.

 

[Scooter68]

Drainsurgeon - Hang in there! Been there done that and after one year just about come to grips with the issues of pH and TA testing.

pH meters can be had for as little as $15.00 or (believe it or not) Over $5,000.00 YEAH that's crazy. I paid about $20.00 on amazon and it works just fine. Be prepared to invest a little in the calibration solutions ($15.00 - $20.00/year perhaps) and some distilled water - that's about it.

Personally I am concerned that my wine will keep so I focus on the pH readings. As long my finished wine is under 3.7 I'm happy.
TA testing, to me, is optional. You can use your taste buds to monitor the wine as it ferments and more importantly, as it ages.

Bottom line a meter is easy easy to use. Buy a good meter (Normally less than $50.00 unless you plan on doing wine making for a second income) couple of bottles of distilled water, some calibration solutions and go for it.

For almost all of our wines a pH of 3.35-3.7 should be fine. If your wine drifts above 3.7 (becoming less acidic) it could spoil on you even in the best storage conditions.
As far as too acidic - I've found several commercial wineries who listed the pH of their wines and they were at 3.18, 3.20 etc and yet they clearly felt that wasn't too acidic. Again that comes back to what acids are in the wine and how they taste - that's where their vintners/wine tasters earn their keep and that's where we all have different likes and dislikes. (If you read many threads on here you will understand what I'm saying.)

 

[drainsurgeon]

Appreciate the encouragement Scooter. I purchased a pH meter off Ebay a couple of weeks ago. After calibrating and testing the 3 wines I had going. I also tested my well water and water out of my osmosis machine. I found them to be 7.0 and 6.5. If I tested those for say, 6-12 months, and if there is no change.....can't I just use their readings as a means to calibrate?

 

[ibglowin]

No you could not. Water be it well water or RO is not stable. Buffers are just that stable. That is why you use buffers to calibrate a pH meter and not water.

 

[cmason1957]

Appreciate the encouragement Scooter. I purchased a pH meter off Ebay a couple of weeks ago. After calibrating and testing the 3 wines I had going. I also tested my well water and water out of my osmosis machine. I found them to be 7.0 and 6.5. If I tested those for say, 6-12 months, and if there is no change.....can't I just use their readings as a means to calibrate?

You want your calibration to be near the range of where you plan to measure. I do the 4.01 and 7.01 and then verify against a 3.1 (or some numbers like that). Most of the time we as winemakers are in the 3-4 range.

 

[Scooter68]

If you take good care of the meter in terms of pre-soaking before testing, rinsing well with tap water then with distilled water and dry it gently - you shouldn't have any problem. I only use tap water so that I can get all of the wine liquid rinsed off. Just remember to turn off the meter before rinsing. Today I checked the calibration of my $20.00 pH meter and after 5 month of occasional use it was off by - 0.00 - ZERO I was a little surprised as I expected a little drift - but I figure good maintenance helps keep it from having problems. The cost of the buffer solutions is just one of those little things that comes with the hobby.

 

[Johny99]

Some random thoughts on the subject as I've spent a ton of time on it.

A caution on "less expensive" meters. While the display has the resolution, the meter electronics do not. As a winemaker you care about .01 pH differences. A difference of 3.51 to 3.56 matters to wine. Look at the specs. Does it display to .01 but only has a resolution of .5? That is a real spec on a readily available less expensive meter.

Definitely use carefully stored buffers for calibration. Even those change over time and should be regularly replaced.

i agree pH is a better tool than TA when trying to make a sound wine. However, they are not directly linked and TA has a different taste impact than pH. I measure TA for an initial picture of the wine, then manage pH. I confess I use pH to pick as it is easier to measure a field sample than TA. "If you know the pH, you can get by without knowing the TA of your wines." Mark Stanley Creating World Class Red Wines.

It is important to maintain the meter and probe and make sure the probe is properly filed. A replaceable probe will lengthen the life of the meter as the probe is what ages and fails. Regenerating a dead probe is possible but iffy and a pain.

I've done lab work with different high quality meters, several $1,000s range. They calibrate differently each time. Measure a buffer today, and again tomorrow and they vary. Thus, I'm suspicious of inexpensive meters that seem to be stable. I suspect (although I don't want to disparage anyone's meter) that the electronics just are not good enough to measure the difference. The physics of measuring pH is too complex, as is pH itself, to be consistent at different times and temperatures.

Lastly, pH varies versus temperature, so either correct for temperature or use a meter/probe with auto temp correction.

 

[drainsurgeon]

OK, I think I'm finally getting a handle on this pH stuff, despite curve balls from you guys. This morning I check a Dragon Blood variation I started 6 days ago. It was initially 3.1 on the meter and raised it to 3.5 with calcium carbonate. Day 6 at 1.036 SG and for the heck of it I check the pH and its 2.9 Now I know some are going to ask about temp, and it is 12 degrees higher, but my meter is supposed to be temp adjusting. What caused this and do I try to correct it back up again? I have been warned about trying to adjust an active ferment.

 

[Johnd]

OK, I think I'm finally getting a handle on this pH stuff, despite curve balls from you guys. This morning I check a Dragon Blood variation I started 6 days ago. It was initially 3.1 on the meter and raised it to 3.5 with calcium carbonate. Day 6 at 1.036 SG and for the heck of it I check the pH and its 2.9 Now I know some are going to ask about temp, and it is 12 degrees higher, but my meter is supposed to be temp adjusting. What caused this and do I try to correct it back up again? I have been warned about trying to adjust an active ferment.

The presence of co2 in your fermenting wine fouls up your pH readings. Take your readings, make adjustments, confirm your desired starting point before pitching your yeast. Check and adjust post fermentation in a CO2 free sample.

 

[Johny99]

WSU test book recommends boiling off the co2 first, microwave ok, before pH or TA testing. I've done it with finished ferments, didn't make much difference, but never active. I guess it should work.

 

[drainsurgeon]

Thanks John and John.

I'm sorry, I should have added that I adjusted before pitching the yeast. I'll let it go for now and check it again in a week or so. My first Dragon Blood ended up at 2.9 and it actually tastes pretty good. I didn't have my meter at that point and did NO adjusting at all. In the Jack Keller blog I mentioned earlier, he states he only tests about 1/2 of the wines he brews and mostly goes by taste. I have a LONG ways to go before getting that good!

 

[Tnuscan]

Most wines that you make from frozen (packaged) fruit or juice from the supermarket, will not need adjustments like fresh picked berries or grapes will.

Most of those recipes will give you a trouble free nice wine by just following the instructions. That is unless you have tasted them and just want to dial them in to your personal taste.

 

[Scooter68]

WSU test book recommends boiling off the co2 first, microwave ok, before pH or TA testing. I've done it with finished ferments, didn't make much difference, but never active. I guess it should work.

I would never submit a wine finished, in process, or otherwise to heating via Microwave, oven, or stove-top. Unless you talking just about the sample itself.

The heat is going to change the properties of the wine, not to mention you better know what will happen to the chemicals you've added when heated or hit with the intense microwaves.

And on the topic of testing - Very few folks on this board are working with wines that are going to be hurt or negatively impacted by a pH meter reading off by .05. That's why all the people posting on the various wine making support sites give ranges of acceptable or desired pH readings, TA, Starting SG etc. We aren't working in a lab we are working in our kitchens, basements etc and while our batches are our pride and joy but we know that there are some things beyond our control in the home 'winery.' If you truly know of wine varieties that cannot tolerate an error in the pH of .05 - please share with us that information. - There are a lot of beginners who don't want that headache and might just decide not to try wine making as a hobby if the tolerances are indeed so small.

 

[wineforfun]

@drainsurgeon
Where did you see that Tropical DB didn't use any lemon or lime juice. I have made it in the past and always used one or the other, per instructions. Usually I use lime juice.

 

[ibglowin]

He means the test sample....

I would never submit a wine finished, in process, or otherwise to heating via Microwave, oven, or stove-top. Unless you talking just about the sample itself.

 

[drainsurgeon]

@drainsurgeon
Where did you see that Tropical DB didn't use any lemon or lime juice. I have made it in the past and always used one or the other, per instructions. Usually I use lime juice.

My recipe was from winenoob66 called Tropical blend. There is also a Tropical Nectar that I copied from this site (didn't record from who) and both recipe's started with 2-48 oz cans of Pineapple juice. I used 6# peaches, 6# mangoes, 3# pineapples and 5 bananas. Haven't bottled yet so can't give final results. I think I got both recipes from the DB thread but that was over a month and several bottles of wine ago.