To bottle or not to bottle, when is the right time?

[jesseb]

Hello,

Last autumn I've made my first wine from grapes (opposed to kit wines before) and it is aging nicely. It is a cabernet sauvignon but it still tastes young. Sour and tart. Its been transferred to a fresh carboy twice and on oak chips in between for about three months. I'm happy with the oak levels, as far I can judge through the youngness. I've did a malo fermentation right after the primary, but no means to meassure the types of acids pressent in the wine.

Is there any downside to bottling at this stage? Is there any benefit one might ask? Well for me there is, convenience mostly. Moving the big and heavy carboy is always tricky to me. I life in an appartement and need to haul it back upstairs from the basement to do any checks on the wine. Besides I might want to use the carboy for a different batch, beer or wine. I'm also very eager to put my own made label on the bottles, but this is just impatience of course.

As is with most aspects of this hobby, I know there is no clear cut yes/no answer. I'm looking for any pro/cons to leave it bulk aging vs bottle aging.

To bottle or not to bottle?

Jesse

 

[crushday]

Just one opinion here (there will likely be opposing views...) - I would bottle!

Here's my rationale:

1. You're happy with the wine now
2. It's going to continue improving whether in one carboy or 30 bottles
3. The carboy provides significant "span of care" - you have to keep moving it, sulfiting it, topping it, etc...
4. Be warned, impatience (temptation) only increases when the wine is sitting in bottles. DON'T DRINK TOO EARLY!*

*If you drink too early - and unchecked, you will - by the time the wine gets really good it will be gone and you'll wish you had more and didn't drink it all within the first year. Believe me, I know (others too).

 

[jesseb]

4. Be warned, impatience (temptation) only increases when the wine is sitting in bottles. DON'T DRINK TOO EARLY!*

*If you drink too early - and unchecked, you will - by the time the wine gets really good it will be gone and you'll wish you had more and didn't drink it all within the first year. Believe me, I know (others too).

Yeah I'm guilty of this as well. Patience for me is one of the hardest part of making wine and beer. But often also the most rewarding and I have no doubt this batch will be any different.

Leaning a bit more to the bottling side already but let's wait for more opinions.

 

[ratflinger]

Bottle it now and hide it in a closet. I do this for my long term wines. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

...and need to haul it back upstairs from the basement to do any checks on the wine.

What sort of checks are you doing that require moving the carboy from the basement? I keep my wines in the basement under my house but any time I want to check on it I take a small sample to test/taste.

 

[winemaker81]

The biggest downside to bottling early is that it's easier to drink in the bottle. Your impatience is perfectly normal, so things you can do to help with that (such as not bottling yet) is good for you in the course of your winemaking career.

Did you use fining agents? If not, your wine may appear clear, but it's highly likely you will experience sediment in the bottle. If you used fining agents, depending on how carefully you racked, you may get a bit more sediment in the carboy. Personally, this is a key reason for not bottling too quickly, as muddy wine makes a poor impression, regardless of how good it is. We drink first with our eyes, and that affects everything afterward..

Wine undergoes a lot of changes in the first 6 to 12 month, depending on the wine. If you bottle early, the wine will undergo changes in the bottle, and you can get significant bottle variation.

This is an oaked Cabernet Sauvignon, so it's not likely to be drinkable for at least 9 months, probably longer. Well, technically it's drinkable now, but more time helps it approach the point where you're proud to serve it.

Give it another month and use a flashlight to determine if you have sediment. I have visions of you manhandling a full carboy up steps -- that is not conducive to making clear wine. Giving the wine another month has no downside, and many upsides.

 

[vinny]

I was going to try juice last year, but I never got it lined up with the LHBS, so to date I have still only done kits and country wines.. I am also only about a year and half into this hobby so you may very well have a better understanding than me.

My initial thought was why bottle?

It is very likely that it is just young, but what if there is a slight imbalance that you want to correct later? Easy to do in bulk, not so much in bottles.

My second thought is, I know myself. I would bottle, give it a month or two and try one. It would be significantly better and I would think, well that is much improved. Then in my mind it would go to 'ready'. I have a stash of all the wines I have made. I keep a few bottles hidden to try way down the road. This gives me the ability to see how different wines and kit qualities are going to age out over more time, BUT! It will also allow me to discover I drank 26 pretty good bottles of a wine that turned out great given more time.

I have 5 kits in bulk and they are at 4.5 months. I racked off gross lees, have sulphited twice, but other than that I have just left them. i started feeling I should do something. They are sitting on fine lees, and 2 are on oak. I posted, I intend to age longer, should I rack off lees or get them off oak?

The general consensus was leave them be.

I treat my $60 kits different to the $150 kits. The cheaper ones are utility wines. Tastes good, drink it. The premium kits I hide more bottles and wait out aging longer. In this case you went to all the trouble to make it from grapes....

 

[jesseb]

What sort of checks are you doing that require moving the carboy from the basement? I keep my wines in the basement under my house but any time I want to check on it I take a small sample to test/taste.

I suppose I could do that as well, although very little room to work inside the storage...

 

[jesseb]

The biggest downside to bottling early is that it's easier to drink in the bottle. Your impatience is perfectly normal, so things you can do to help with that (such as not bottling yet) is good for you in the course of your winemaking career.

Did you use fining agents? If not, your wine may appear clear, but it's highly likely you will experience sediment in the bottle. If you used fining agents, depending on how carefully you racked, you may get a bit more sediment in the carboy. Personally, this is a key reason for not bottling too quickly, as muddy wine makes a poor impression, regardless of how good it is. We drink first with our eyes, and that affects everything afterward..

Wine undergoes a lot of changes in the first 6 to 12 month, depending on the wine. If you bottle early, the wine will undergo changes in the bottle, and you can get significant bottle variation.

This is an oaked Cabernet Sauvignon, so it's not likely to be drinkable for at least 9 months, probably longer. Well, technically it's drinkable now, but more time helps it approach the point where you're proud to serve it.

Give it another month and use a flashlight to determine if you have sediment. I have visions of you manhandling a full carboy up steps -- that is not conducive to making clear wine. Giving the wine another month has no downside, and many upsides.

No finings used. At first there was quite a lot of sediment, by the second transfer much less. Right now I can't see anything, probably due to odd shape of the carboy. My guess is that there is some on the bottom though. But I agree, a cloudy wine is very undesirable.

Good point about the bottle aging and possible differences between bottles. How significant can this be? Stored next to each other?

What about the speed of aging, bottle vs bulk? In the beer brewing world there is an never-ending discussion about bulk aging being faster and 'better', whatever that means.

 

[winemaker81]

I suppose I could do that as well, although very little room to work inside the storage...

Given the danger of carrying full carboys up and down steps, it's far safer for you and the wine to do whatever you can in the storage area.

No finings used. At first there was quite a lot of sediment, by the second transfer much less. Right now I can't see anything, probably due to odd shape of the carboy. My guess is that there is some on the bottom though. But I agree, a cloudy wine is very undesirable.

Wine might be clear after 4 months, but I'd expect a red with oak to need at least 6 to 8 months. If you bottle early, expect a fine layer of sediment in the bottles.

Good point about the bottle aging and possible differences between bottles. How significant can this be? Stored next to each other?

I had one batch exhibit bottle variation where about half were really good and half had serious kit wine taste. They were stored in one rack, and there was no telling which I was pulling out of the rack.

What about the speed of aging, bottle vs bulk? In the beer brewing world there is an never-ending discussion about bulk aging being faster and 'better', whatever that means.

Wine ages slower in larger volumes, but I've never seen any formal description of the differences. Like wine aging in general, it's variable from batch to batch, which may explain the lack of any serious studies.

Generally speaking, I currently bottle nothing before 4 months of age, and that's going to be lighter fruits and whites, possibly light reds. Medium reds, darker fruits, and heavier whites are typically 6+ months, and heavy reds no sooner than 9 months (12+ is more likely). There are no rules, just guidelines, and many factors in the wine and in my personal life may affect things.

 

[wineview]

If I understand your post correctly, you said the wine went through MLF but you don’t have any way to check if it’s finished. If it’s not, bottling could be a problem.

 

[jesseb]

Given the danger of carrying full carboys up and down steps, it's far safer for you and the wine to do whatever you can in the storage area.


Wine might be clear after 4 months, but I'd expect a red with oak to need at least 6 to 8 months. If you bottle early, expect a fine layer of sediment in the bottles.


I had one batch exhibit bottle variation where about half were really good and half had serious kit wine taste. They were stored in one rack, and there was no telling which I was pulling out of the rack.


Wine ages slower in larger volumes, but I've never seen any formal description of the differences. Like wine aging in general, it's variable from batch to batch, which may explain the lack of any serious studies.

Generally speaking, I currently bottle nothing before 4 months of age, and that's going to be lighter fruits and whites, possibly light reds. Medium reds, darker fruits, and heavier whites are typically 6+ months, and heavy reds no sooner than 9 months (12+ is more likely). There are no rules, just guidelines, and many factors in the wine and in my personal life may affect things.

Thank you for the elaborate replay. In fact, all of the replays are really helpful. Thank you all.

A bit more on the aging part, does the oxygen exposure play a roll in this? Larger vessel equals relatively less oxygen exposure, correct? If that's true, the frequency of transferring (thus also he way you transfer, splashing etc) matters a lot right? Bit off topic from the original question but interesting non the less.

 

[ChuckD]

Thank you for the elaborate replay. In fact, all of the replays are really helpful. Thank you all.

A bit more on the aging part, does the oxygen exposure play a roll in this? Larger vessel equals relatively less oxygen exposure, correct? If that's true, the frequency of transferring (thus also he way you transfer, splashing etc) matters a lot right? Bit off topic from the original question but interesting non the less.

Yes, that is the theory.

As to the racking, many here limit racking to two or three times. I typically pour out of the fermentation bucket into a carboy then rack off of course lees After they settle and once more when the wine has cleared (sometimes mostly cleared) and then age it for 4 to 12 months or even more. I typically rack into a bottling bucket for final additions and bottling.

I always seek to minimize O2 exposure when racking.

 

[jesseb]

If I understand your post correctly, you said the wine went through MLF but you don’t have any way to check if it’s finished. If it’s not, bottling could be a problem.

Yes that is correct. I mean I think it started after I added the culture, small bubbles for a week or so, and then it stopped. But it might as well been some CO2 getting out of suspension. How would you asses this risk? If I leave it for lets say four more months, is it still possible to get MLF in the bottles? When is it safe?

One major part of being inexperienced is not knowing what to expect. Getting opinions from others help a lot.

 

[wineview]

Yes, that is the theory.

As to the racking, many here limit racking to two or three times. I typically pour out of the fermentation bucket into a carboy then rack off of course lees After they settle and once more when the wine has cleared (sometimes mostly cleared) and then age it for 4 to 12 months or even more. I typically rack into a bottling bucket for final additions and bottling.

I always seek to minimize O2 exposure when racking.

Speaking of 02 exposure, it would seem that the wine is exposed to a lot of it during the degassing process. I typically degass in a bucket then transfer to carboy. Am I playing Russian roulette?

 

[ChuckD]

Speaking of 02 exposure, it would seem that the wine is exposed to a lot of it during the degassing process. I typically degass in a bucket then transfer to carboy. Am I playing Russian roulette?

I understand degassing by stirring just starts the process and it finishes degassing in the carboy, so the off gassing CO2 will provide protection from O2.

If you are going to age a few months it will degas on its own, and the CO2 will help protect the wine.

You should still use k-meta as instructed for O2 protection after degassing. There is debate about how strict you have to be to the three month schedule if you are not manipulating the wine. I will
Let mine go a few extra months when bulk aging.

 

[wineview]

Truth be told, I have never had a problem with degassing, giving it a dose of kmeta and bulk aging.

 

[winemaker81]

One major part of being inexperienced is not knowing what to expect. Getting opinions from others help a lot.

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask because you're concerned about appearing stupid. This forum is amazingly beginner friendly, unlike the remainder of the net. You are a beginner -- you don't know stuff -- YET. You will.

I suggest using the search button. It may help you. It may not. If it doesn't, ask questions.

Speaking of 02 exposure, it would seem that the wine is exposed to a lot of it during the degassing process. I typically degass in a bucket then transfer to carboy. Am I playing Russian roulette?

Ya know, lack of understanding of O2 is probably the biggest issue among winemakers.

Unless you have sterile lab conditions, you WILL have O2 exposure. As @ChuckD said, limit exposure. Add K-meta, which addresses O2, among other things.

A bit more on the aging part, does the oxygen exposure play a roll in this? Larger vessel equals relatively less oxygen exposure, correct? If that's true, the frequency of transferring (thus also he way you transfer, splashing etc) matters a lot right? Bit off topic from the original question but interesting non the less.

What matters is the wine volume to head space volume. When you have 19-23 liters of wine, and there 2" of headspace between the wine and the stopper, it's not a problem.

Rack as few times as necessary, as that reduces air exposure. Make your rackings time efficient, but do not freak. Again, K-meta binds to O2 and addresses the situation.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* wine ages faster in a smaller container. We can fudge this a bit by using a tighter closure. Natural cork transmits about 5mg oxygen per year. ,,, Yes a lot of aging is oxidation reactions.
* Sour wines taste balanced with sugar. BUT, Sweet young wines can have live culture which starts refermentation. I like to age at least nine months so the risk of refermentation is low, or else add sorbate preservative.
* Malolactic cultures metabolize sorbate creating off flavors. Sorbate is a bad idea, time to starve the yeast is safer.
* Artifical sweeteners are a way around balancing sour on a young wine. Letting the wine stay dry is another safe option.

 

[wineview]

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask because you're concerned about appearing stupid. This forum is amazingly beginner friendly, unlike the remainder of the net. You are a beginner -- you don't know stuff -- YET. You will.

I suggest using the search button. It may help you. It may not. If it doesn't, ask questions.


Ya know, lack of understanding of O2 is probably the biggest issue among winemakers.

Unless you have sterile lab conditions, you WILL have O2 exposure. As @ChuckD said, limit exposure. Add K-meta, which addresses O2, among other things.


What matters is the wine volume to head space volume. When you have 19-23 liters of wine, and there 2" of headspace between the wine and the stopper, it's not a problem.

Rack as few times as necessary, as that reduces air exposure. Make your rackings time efficient, but do not freak. Again, K-meta binds to O2 and addresses the situation.

About 02. I add kmeta immediately after degassing. Should I be adding it just before degassing for the protection you are referencing?