Super kleer

[Eric336]

Would it be ok to use super kleer twice for my wine?

 

[winemaker81]

I would not -- all fining agents strip something from a wine, so using the recommended amount or less is best. I did a test with Super Kleer (also called Dual Fine and is actually kieselsol & chitosan) and noted that it reduces aroma and imparts a slight bitterness.

 

[Eric336]

I would not -- all fining agents strip something from a wine, so using the recommended amount or less is best. I did a test with Super Kleer (also called Dual Fine and is actually kieselsol & chitosan) and noted that it reduces aroma and imparts a slight bitterness.

Thank you

 

[Ohio Bob]

If you seem to think you need to clear the wine twice, I’m wondering if the real problem is a protein haze (fruit wine?). Were the directions for the Super Kleer followed? The chitosan part needs to be mixed in first, then 1-3 days later, the kieselsol part is mixed in. This is supposed to give the C part a chance to bind then gets bound to the K part, and drops out as sediment. My notes also say that isinglass can be used after all other fining attempts, as a polishing step.

If the K and C parts were added soon after the other than it’s possible they simply got bound to each other, essentially doing nothing.

 

[winemaker81]

The instructions for using kieselsol & chitosan (I'm abbreviating to K & C) are not clear cut. I think Bob has it backwards -- add kieselsol first, then chitosan.

The timing? I have seen:

1. add together
2. add C 1 minute after K
3. add C 5 minutes after K
4. add C 1 hour after K
5. add C 1 day after K

I have not done #1 and #5, but have done #2, #3, and #4. Currently I add the K when the racking is started, and stir for 30 seconds when it's complete. I typically add K-meta at this time, so it's ensuring everything is blended.

Then I add the C, which is probably 5 to 10 minutes after I first start the siphon, and stir again for 30 to 60 seconds.

This timing works, and I see at least the start of clearing within a few hours, although on the odd occasion it may take a day. It doesn't matter as it works.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I got my info from...

https://winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet
Number 3, says for Kieselsol, “used after gelatin or chitosan”.

Nor saying it’s right, just where I got it.

 

[winemaker81]

I got my info from...

https://winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet
Number 3, says for Kieselsol, “used after gelatin or chitosan”.

Nor saying it’s right, just where I got it.

I was wondering how you got it backwards ... and now I cannot say that you did. I have a local copy of the WE instructions, and it says to add chitosan first, and I found another reference that says the same. And in the past the order was always kieselsol first. I recall reading in several places that if chitosan was added first, the wine won't clear.

FWK says to add them together.

Now I'm wondering if the order matters in any way. It's entirely possible someone decided at some point that order matters, wrote about it, and other people parroted it.

This is a good experiment for someone with two batches going -- Add K&C to one and C&K to the other to see if it matters.

@Eric336, this is situation normal, veering off topic into (hopefully) related discussions. Or not related.

What is your wine and why do you think it needs another round of fining? I should have asked that question immediately after warning you to not use K&C again.

If it's fruit wine, a pectin haze is a possibility, and either way a protein haze is possible. For pectin, add pectic enzyme -- it will not hurt your wine if you add it unnecessarily. For protein you can fine with bentonite. Also, Bob pointed out that isinglass can be used for polishing.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Perhaps a philosophical question...

I think the order might matter, depending on what the haze charge is. If the haze is negative and you add the negative fining agent first, nothing is likely to drop out. Then when you add the positive fining agent, it simply binds to whatever negative charge is greater. Could be the haze, could be the negative charged fining agent.