Other Sulfite before degassing by agitation?

[jsiddall]

Per a suggestion from another forum member I have recently degassed by vigorously shaking a part full carboy while under vacuum. The agitation in the presence of a good vacuum seems to be far more effective at removing CO2 than either method used alone. Typically I do this degassing immediately before adding the K-meta supplied with the kit as the vacuum degassing reportedly can strip the K-meta from the wine if added before.

I am now doing my first white kit and am a bit more concerned about oxidation. Since the agitation certainly introduces more oxygen than other methods should I perhaps add a half-dose of K-meta before degassing and then the other half after?

 

[Bergmann]

Since you are degassing with a vacuum pump, create the vacuum and let it pull down this will bring Co2 out of the wine. In just a minute or two the Co2 will flood the air space, the O2 will be vacuumed out there will be no Oxygen in the carboy, so shaking will not introduce Oxygen into the wine.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Since you are degassing with a vacuum pump, create the vacuum and let it pull down this will bring Co2 out of the wine. In just a minute or two the Co2 will flood the air space, the O2 will be vacuumed out there will be no Oxygen in the carboy, so shaking will not introduce Oxygen into the wine.

This is correct - even splash racking will have the same effect. Then add your sulfite afterwards.

 

[bkisel]

Hi, Part full carboy? About what percentage full or how many gallons/liters out of how many gallons/liters full?

Thanx...

 

[sour_grapes]

Hi, Part full carboy? About what percentage full or how many gallons/liters out of how many gallons/liters full?

I may be the "other forum member," as I have advocated this approach frequently. I use 6 gal carboys. Starting from a full, clean 6-gallon carboy, I rack 3 gallons into another carboy. I perform the vacuum/agitation on one, and then the other. Then I rack one of them into the other.

 

[jsiddall]

Since you are degassing with a vacuum pump, create the vacuum and let it pull down this will bring Co2 out of the wine. In just a minute or two the Co2 will flood the air space, the O2 will be vacuumed out there will be no Oxygen in the carboy, so shaking will not introduce Oxygen into the wine.

Very good point. Why didn't I think of that?

Of course that does imply that you need to start with a gassy wine. Previously, when I was only using vacuum to degass, I would repeat the procedure since I was never sure when it was really all degassed. With agitation you only get one shot I suppose, though it is thorough enough that once is enough.

This is correct - even splash racking will have the same effect. Then add your sulfite afterwards.

This also makes sense, though the instructions with this kit (Passport) say not to splash to avoid incorporating oxygen. I suppose early on in the racking when the carboy is full of air it takes some time for it all to be displaced with CO2. Seems overly cautious though.

Hi, Part full carboy? About what percentage full or how many gallons/liters out of how many gallons/liters full?

Thanx...

This time around, due to available carboys, I am going to put about 2 gal in a 3 gal carboy and the remaining 4 gal in a 6 gal carboy (i.e.: 2/3 full each). For the "traditional" way see sour_grapes post. Ultimately as long as there is enough space in the carboy for some sloshing it should work.

I may be the "other forum member," as I have advocated this approach frequently. I use 6 gal carboys. Starting from a full, clean 6-gallon carboy, I rack 3 gallons into another carboy. I perform the vacuum/agitation on one, and then the other. Then I rack one of them into the other.

Yes, I think I learned this from you. Thanks for the tip. Sorry for not crediting you initially. I couldn't remember where I read it or whose idea it was!

 

[bkisel]

I may be the "other forum member," as I have advocated this approach frequently. I use 6 gal carboys. Starting from a full, clean 6-gallon carboy, I rack 3 gallons into another carboy. I perform the vacuum/agitation on one, and then the other. Then I rack one of them into the other.

Thanks. Now I see. I was picturing only "some" of the one being degassed and not the other part - or - degassing some and then filling the same carboy and degassing a second time.

I wonder if your method would benefit my Vacu Vin hand pump degassing? I've been transferring all the wine into a glass carboy from secondary and then pump like a crazy person over the course of 2-3 days. I do have plenty of head space as my Italian glass carboys hold more than 23L/ 6 gallons if filled to the neck.

 

[grapeman]

Bill those carboys need to be filled just like the ones that only hold 6 gallons. Obviously it takes more wine since they hold more, but they need to fill the tapered part at the top. If you want to degas simply take out a couple bottles worth and then degas, otherwise they should be filled to the neck or close to it. You are risking the wine by only putting 6 gallons in a carboy that holds almost six and a half. If you are using the vacu vin you are working a lot to degas the wine.

 

[sour_grapes]

I wonder if your method would benefit my Vacu Vin hand pump degassing? I've been transferring all the wine into a glass carboy from secondary and then pump like a crazy person over the course of 2-3 days. I do have plenty of head space as my Italian glass carboys hold more than 23L/ 6 gallons if filled to the neck.

I can state categorically that you do NOT want to follow my lead if you are using a hand pump. Doing it my way means you have to expel a lot of air (~3 gallons) before the pressure drops sufficiently to encourage CO2 bubble formation. With an electric pump, it takes more than a few minutes, during which time I can relax and sip some wine. It would take a LOOOOONG time to do this by hand.

 

[jsiddall]

I can state categorically that you do NOT want to follow my lead if you are using a hand pump. Doing it my way means you have to expel a lot of air (~3 gallons) before the pressure drops sufficiently to encourage CO2 bubble formation. With an electric pump, it takes more than a few minutes, during which time I can relax and sip some wine. It would take a LOOOOONG time to do this by hand.

I use a mighty vac and I can attest that it takes a very long time to pump out the air -- so much in fact that I broke the handle on the last batch. So now I have to use pliers to pull the piston portion out which results in a monumental pectoral workout! This batch I am thinking using a 6 gal and a 3 gal carboy will improve the situation for me but I have an electric pump on order for the next batch.

 

[bkisel]

I use a mighty vac and I can attest that it takes a very long time to pump out the air -- so much in fact that I broke the handle on the last batch. So now I have to use pliers to pull the piston portion out which results in a monumental pectoral workout! This batch I am thinking using a 6 gal and a 3 gal carboy will improve the situation for me but I have an electric pump on order for the next batch.

Would you please share the information on what electric pump you're getting? I think that is allowable information to share in a thread but if not then perhaps you could PM me. Thanx...

 

[jsiddall]

I'm getting one like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3CFM-Rotary...-Air-Tool-Freon-R410a-R134-etc-/381154758574?

Partly because I can use it for HVAC work also

 

[Enologo]

That is similiar to the one I have but I think mine is 2.5 CFM. Just be aware that pump will create some smoke due to the oil. I have an unfinished basement where I do my thing so I'm not worried about ruining anything and I set up an air purifier next to the pump to suck up the smoke. Had I known at the time I might have opted for the All In One but in the begining not knowing how deep into this venture I was going get I was trying to save a few bucks. All in all it's just a little additional hassle because of the smoke but it all works fine.

 

[grapeman]

The AllInOne Pump is a wonderful unit and I don't want to take any credit away from it but another option for anyone needing a pump would me a medical grade vacuum aspirator. I would prefer getting a new one if possible for obvious sanitary reasons. They come as a self contained unit generally with a catch jar which acts as an overflow. I am listing one here like one that I used for over 10 years with no problems. I even accidentally way overfilled the overflow accidentaly one time and the wine was sucked into the pump's piston cylinder. I took it apart, cleaned it out and it has run for years since then. It comes with a couple hoses and the rest of what you need to hook up depends on what you want to do with it. Wade also used a different model and sold them for a while as a kit. Anyways here is what I am talking about
http://www.ebay.com/itm/INVACARE-AS...314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item419066b8c2

 

[FTC Wines]

I have noticed if u add the sulfite before degassing with vacuum there seems to be much more gas than if u add it after degassing. Almost to the point of volcanos. Has anyone else noticed this? I now degas first then stabilize. Roy