Stabilizing and clarifying Q

[wildhair]

I noticed that the Dragon's Blood recipe and the kit wine I just finished called for stabilizing & added clarifying agent after the first rack. Most of the fruit recipes I've tried call for racking numerous times and waiting for the wine to clear on it's own before stabilizing and then backsweetening. I know there is probably no single "right " way, but is there reason (or advantage) to "natural clearing" as opposed to stabilizing and using a clearing agent after the first racking? If the wine is dry - why not stabilize it?

It seems to me that the multiple rackings could introduce oxygen and/or unwanted microbes. Does letting the wine sit on the lees affect the taste negatively?

 

[Ajmassa]

Guess it’s how we define the term “stabilize”.
In grape wine I view stabilizing as after fermentation (and MLF) removing from gross lees, adding sulphites and removing headspace.
DB recipe seems to kind of march to its own drum. But like kits it is a sped up process- so the clearing agents are added right after stabilizing. Sorbate is used at this “stabilizing” probably because the sweetening is happening roughly a week later.
Fruit wines you would know better than me. But all that racking and waiting before “stabilizing” and sweetening seems like it would just mean sorbate- stabilizing for no re-fermentation. But no reason to not add sulphites early<— stabilizing for bacteria and o2 protection.
Some lees they say benefits certain wine. ‘Sur lie’ method leaves the lees but would still be sulphited I think.
So, Sulphite and rack- or - no sulphite and leave be? But see no reason to skip both.

 

[bkisel]

I've always added a step when making DB. At ~ SG 1.020 I'll rack for secondary fermentation to dry. When dry I'll then do the stabilizing and clearing. Never waited for "natural clearing", always use clearing agents, so can't speak to any a advantage to going natural.

 

[Ajmassa]

I think you just touched on a great point. most recipes aren’t set in stone. Probably just some other basement dweller sharing what has worked for them.
So if you see a flaw or just know a better way that your more comfortable with then go with your gut instincts if you feel confident. And if clearing agents are skipped worst case you could always just add later if it doesn’t clear.

 

[bkisel]

I think you just touched on a great point. most recipes aren’t set in stone. Probably just some other basement dweller sharing what has worked for them.
So if you see a flaw or just know a better way that your more comfortable with then go with your gut instincts if you feel confident. And if clearing agents are skipped worst case you could always just add later if it doesn’t clear.

"basement dweller" you say... I don't know wether to take offense at that term or not. I do my fermentation, degassing, stabilizing and clearing in my kitchen/dinning room area (my bulk aging, bottling and bottle aging in the basement) so I guess I'm not as much a basement dweller as a lot of other WMT folk.

 

[Ajmassa]

"basement dweller" you say... I don't know ether to take offense at that term or not. I do my fermentation, degassing, stabilizing and clearing in my kitchen/dinning room area (my bulk aging, bottling and bottle aging in the basement) so I guess I'm not as much a basement dweller as a lot of other WMT folk.

I’ve taken over the kitchen a couple times. But she didn’t want me in there I don’t want to be there!
How about “non professional winemakers”. Not to be confused with UNprofessional.
Even dangerdave’s DB. He’s a fireman who found something that worked. But encourages tweaks. Or Jack Keller. I assume he is a pro- but from what I can tell the vast majority do major reconstruction to his recipes.
With clearing doesn’t a lot of fruit wine need pectin enzyme to remove haze regardless of time? Grape wine and juice pails can typically clear with just time- just personal preference.
Kits and DB or anything wanted to finish quick Id use em.

 

[wildhair]

Well, I would qualify as a "basement dweller", I guess - although "cellar dweller" has a nicer ring to it, I think. LOL
I'm still new at this, so questions abound ~ especially when I see or read conflicting methods & techniques. I haven't really developed my own "style" and I think most of the "better ways" have probably been figured out already - likely by someone in this forum. The Q of when to use the sorbate and meta and clearing agents & the sequence still puzzles me a bit. Kind of a chicken and egg thing - which one first. And why.

 

[Ajmassa]

Well, I would qualify as a "basement dweller", I guess - although "cellar dweller" has a nicer ring to it, I think. LOL
I'm still new at this, so questions abound ~ especially when I see or read conflicting methods & techniques. I haven't really developed my own "style" and I think most of the "better ways" have probably been figured out already - likely by someone in this forum. The Q of when to use the sorbate and meta and clearing agents & the sequence still puzzles me a bit. Kind of a chicken and egg thing - which one first. And why.

Gotchta. Well knowing just a few general things would really help connect the dots for ya. I like all those Manuals on morewine.com because they give great info on not only ‘what’ to do, but also ‘why’ you do it.
‘Stabilizing’ isn’t a be all end all type term. But as long as you know sorbate is only needed/used with wines containing residual sugar to prevent it from refermenting later. Sugar from backsweeting or not fermented dry. When backsweetening the sorbate is added at or near that time- stabilizing the remaining yeasties from going to work on it in the bottle.
Sulphites really should be added as soon as possibly without negatively affecting anything else. Usually when fermentation is completely finished and racked off gross lees. If wine is undergoing MLF then waiting until after that too.
If using Clearing agents they really can be added at any point after primary. You could try to clear with time and rackings - but if it’s a stubborn batch they can be added later down the road too.
Lots of kits have you add bentonite up front. Which combined with the other agents they call for later are just how they can get away with instructing to bottle so early. But if bulk aging it isn’t crucial. The few I’ve done I added as directed and still bulk aged- because, well why not ?

 

[wildhair]

That's helpful - knowing "why" helps me understand the how and when better. I'll check out the morewine info - i think I stumbled across some of that early on and it seemed over my head at the time. Might be able to get more out of it now.
I've found most of the fruit wines need some backsweetening to enhance the fruit flavor. And my wife requires a certain degree of sweetness for her wine, so sorbate is required in my wine.
I saw a couple recipes that also added the bentonite in the primary - I'm trying that with a rhubarb and a cranberry now.
Much appreciated.

 

[meadmaker1]

cranberry apple was the first wine I tried. I am now on batch three. Narrowing in on the taste of the best wine ive ever had.
Based on my experiance, go buy your self another carboy the size of the one your cranberry rubarb is in and plan on aging one year in bulk and another year in bottles.
It will be tough but the wait will be worth it.
After a year in bulk, racking every three months or so, it will be crystal clear and getting better tasting every day.

 

[wildhair]

LOL Not sure any wine could last a year in bulk and a year in the bottle at my place! Hell, I might not last that long!
The cranberry-rhubarb sounds like a good idea. Right now, I have 2 separate batches - 5 gallons of rhubarb and a 2 1/2 gal batch of cranberry. Rhubarb seems to mix well with lots of things - I'll have to freeze more than the 20# I froze last year. Last year my rhubarb had some difficulty clearing, but once it did it was crystal clear & pale pink. And pretty tasty.

 

[meadmaker1]

Well that settles it then you definitely need more than one additional car boy
I put some cranberry away until I made another batch of JOA mead. Becsuse it was bottled too early and had sediment, as well as tasting thin,. I had opened 5 bottles and put them on the fine lees of a Joa I had done and let it settle completely. It was awsome.
I helped a friend do a batch of joa and got the fine lees and the bit that didnt siphon this week end and grabbed five of the six that were left to do it again. Of coarse it didn't all fit so I drank what was left.
It had changed. Now I wish I had them back. Oh well it will still be good.
AFTER IT SETTLES AND CLEARS BY ITSELF.

 

[wildhair]

LOL I have 12 other wines already in carboys... in various stages of settling. And several empty ones waiting for the rest of my fruit to get fermented. What I need is more room!