Planning for small vineyard in southern Arizona

[winemaker81]

Grenache is mostly good for blends it always falls flat on its face in pure Grenache wines it lacks good tannins it lacks good acidity has poor color potential and tends to suffer from a few faults in winemaking.

I disagree. Most of the Southern Rhone I like are 40% to 75% Grenache. IME the most common blends in Southern Rhone are at least 50% Grenache.

Are CA Grenache different from Rhone? Undoubtedly.

Earlier this month my son & I bottled our 2022 wines: barrel aged Grenache, barrel aged Tempranillo, and glass aged Mourvedre / Petite Sirah / Syrah (Rhone blend). All grapes are CA grown.

We conducted 2 tastings, one with Tempranillo and the Rhone blend, and the second with Grenache with the Rhone blend.

For the Tempranillo, we tasted the following blends with Rhone blend: 0%, 5%, 10%, 15%. We really liked the pure Tempranillo, but also liked the 5% blend. The 10% and 15% blends drowned the Tempranillo. Our decision was to bottle 3 cases of Tempranillo and 4 cases of 5% blend.

Then we tested the Grenache: 0%, 5%, 10%, 15%, and 20%. The winners were 0% and 20%, so we made 25% and 30% blends.

The 0% is a winner. Make no mistake, it's a lighter colored and bodied wine, which was gentle up front and lingered in the aftertaste. We bottled 3 cases.

The other winner was the 25%. The 30% overwhelmed the Grenache. The 5%-20% were lacking in some way, while the 25% was a great balance -- a REALLY heavy duty red up front with lots of tobacco, fading into a long Grenache finish in the nose and back of the throat. We bottled 6.5 cases of this plus 1/2 case of a 50/50 blend. A year from now we'll see how things age.

I expected we'd bottle the Tempranillo "as is" and the Grenache in the 35% range. Instead of 2 wines we bottled 4, and the blends were different from what I expected.

 

[Twkundrat]

I'm personally wanting to do a bold wine if I'm just doing a small batch so I'd want to go Syrah heavy but a little Grenache to make it interesting might be nice.

I just got an email back from Grapevines Galore and they didn't really answer my question about what rootstocks are available for Syrah and Grenache. Just gave a vague answer about they would select something with a short vegetative cycle. Am I correct in thinking that 1103P would not be on the short vegetative cycle list? We probably have about the longest growing season that you could ever want in my neck of the woods.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I'm personally wanting to do a bold wine if I'm just doing a small batch so I'd want to go Syrah heavy but a little Grenache to make it interesting might be nice.

I just got an email back from Grapevines Galore and they didn't really answer my question about what rootstocks are available for Syrah and Grenache. Just gave a vague answer about they would select something with a short vegetative cycle. Am I correct in thinking that 1103P would not be on the short vegetative cycle list? We probably have about the longest growing season that you could ever want in my neck of the woods.

They pick a rootstock based upon your location it should be 1103p I have Pinot noir from them in my vineyard. 1103p vines tend to be vigorous and early to start producing vegetation and then also are the last to drop leaves.

 

[Twkundrat]

They pick a rootstock based upon your location it should be 1103p I have Pinot noir from them in my vineyard. 1103p vines tend to be vigorous and early to start producing vegetation and then also are the last to drop leaves.

I thought that might be the case. I just thought it was odd that she wouldn't tell me the specifics. Maybe it's just an office lady answering emails who doesn't really know what they would use.

 

[Twkundrat]

I just got a response back saying that the Syrah is on 101-14 and the Grenache is on 1616C. Not sure if that would be the best choice for my area.

So far I haven't been able to find anyone who sells bare root Syrah on 1103P who doesn't have a minimum order of 25 per variety. I'm fine if I could just get the Syrah. I'm not all that concerned about getting the Grenache. Does anyone know of any other sellers that I could check with? There's a place called Fairhaven out of Texas that has them but they aren't bare root so shipping is really expensive. Maybe I just need to find someone else local who wants to split an order of 25 vines.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I just got a response back saying that the Syrah is on 101-14 and the Grenache is on 1616C. Not sure if that would be the best choice for my area.

So far I haven't been able to find anyone who sells bare root Syrah on 1103P who doesn't have a minimum order of 25 per variety. I'm fine if I could just get the Syrah. I'm not all that concerned about getting the Grenache. Does anyone know of any other sellers that I could check with? There's a place called Fairhaven out of Texas that has them but they aren't bare root so shipping is really expensive. Maybe I just need to find someone else local who wants to split an order of 25 vines.

Dang seems like you are having a hell of a time, I have used Novavine and bought as few as 10 vines to replace some I lost might want to try them next spring.

 

[Twkundrat]

Dang seems like you are having a hell of a time, I have used Novavine and bought as few as 10 vines to replace some I lost might want to try them next spring.

I actually did send Novavine an email last night. I didn't realize that the vines I am looking for would be green potted bench grafts instead of the dormant bare root vines. I think the minimum of 25 might just be for the bare root vines. We'll see what they say.

 

[Charles DeVier]

Seems like you are missing a lot of good information right there in your back yard. If I was starting a new vineyard, I would go to the "local" vineyards, taste the wine, taste the grapes, talk to the folks, ask for or buy some cuttings and start my own grapes. The cost of cuttings may be "zero".
I start a few cuttings almost every year and give them to friends. I think that plants adapt to the local environment and soil.

 

[Twkundrat]

Seems like you are missing a lot of good information right there in your back yard. If I was starting a new vineyard, I would go to the "local" vineyards, taste the wine, taste the grapes, talk to the folks, ask for or buy some cuttings and start my own grapes. The cost of cuttings may be "zero".
I start a few cuttings almost every year and give them to friends. I think that plants adapt to the local environment and soil.

Yeah I have grown some cuttings before and I have a few own rooted vines in the ground now. It was the people at my local vineyards who highly recommend going with grafted vines.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Yeah I have grown some cuttings before and I have a few own rooted vines in the ground now. It was the people at my local vineyards who highly recommend going with grafted vines.

The us has phylloxera and eventually any ungrafted vines will die so you really need grafted for long term vineyard health.

 

[Twkundrat]

The us has phylloxera and eventually any ungrafted vines will die so you really need grafted for long term vineyard health.

Yeah even though it will be a small number of vines it would be a shame to lose everything after putting the work into getting things established.

I just sent a soil sample off for analysis so I'll be looking forward to getting those results back.

 

[Twkundrat]

I don't know where I got the idea that Novavine had a minimum order of 25 vines but I finally got someone on the phone there and she said there is no minimum and they might even possibly be able to get me some Grenache vines on 1103P. Sounds like I should be in business.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Yeah even though it will be a small number of vines it would be a shame to lose everything after putting the work into getting things established.

I just sent a soil sample off for analysis so I'll be looking forward to getting those results back.

Let me know what the results show I can give you some advice if you need to make any soil corrections in the case your deficient in anything

 

[Twkundrat]

Let me know what the results show I can give you some advice if you need to make any soil corrections in the case your deficient in anything

Thanks I appreciate that.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Thanks I appreciate that.

The big one is potassium grapes are potassium sinks and if you don’t add it back every year you will have loads of problems

 

[Twkundrat]

I ordered my vines yesterday. I ended up ordering 7 Syrah and 3 Grenache vines both on 1103P.

All they had available in that variety was green potted vines. I'm wondering when the best time to plant them would be. I'm thinking maybe mid April? I've read that green vines are usually planted starting in May but I would think it would be best to get them established before the weather gets too hot.

Speaking of heat, are grow tubes a good idea for a hot climate? If I use them at planting time should I remove them when the temperatures start to get over 100 degrees?

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I ordered my vines yesterday. I ended up ordering 7 Syrah and 3 Grenache vines both on 1103P.

All they had available in that variety was green potted vines. I'm wondering when the best time to plant them would be. I'm thinking maybe mid April? I've read that green vines are usually planted starting in May but I would think it would be best to get them established before the weather gets too hot.

Speaking of heat, are grow tubes a good idea for a hot climate? If I use them at planting time should I remove them when the temperatures start to get over 100 degrees?

Plant in March or early April at latest. Do not put them in full hot sun when getting acclimated or they will die and also if it’s that hot water them frequently and make sure the tubes don’t cook them to death.

 

[Twkundrat]

Plant in March or early April at latest. Do not put them in full hot sun when getting acclimated or they will die and also if it’s that hot water them frequently and make sure the tubes don’t cook them to death.

Thanks for the advice. I just received my soil analysis report too.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Thanks for the advice. I just received my soil analysis report too.
View attachment 108410

The important things you need to improve are as follows,
You need more sulfur, boron, and zinc, also a bit more magnesium you want a good total of magnesium as it is important for chlorophyll in grape leaves. You also need to add some compost if you can get it for the organic matter you have a really low organic matter and it is going to negatively impact your vineyard. Make sure you keep an eye on potassium yearly grapes pull out a lot of potassium yearly when they begin to fruit and you have to add it back yearly.

 

[Twkundrat]

The important things you need to improve are as follows,
You need more sulfur, boron, and zinc, also a bit more magnesium you want a good total of magnesium as it is important for chlorophyll in grape leaves. You also need to add some compost if you can get it for the organic matter you have a really low organic matter and it is going to negatively impact your vineyard. Make sure you keep an eye on potassium yearly grapes pull out a lot of potassium yearly when they begin to fruit and you have to add it back yearly

What would be the best method to incorporate these into my soil? Also, what amount of everything should be added?