Other Oak in kits

[wookey]

Has anyone thought that oak and oaking process in kits is not optimal? I know that some winemakers a not happy with the supplied oak quality. But my main question is the oaking process. Apart from wine, I also do beer and if you want to oak your beer you have a choice of adding oak to primary, to secondary or age on oak. Trying all 3 ways, adding to primary is coming the last. It produces harshier tasted beers than other two ways.
I understand that kit producers get the best of available options. They do not want to extend aging for the general public and lots of oak in primary is the fastest way to oak your wine. But is it the best? I heard that in the new kits (Eclipse and KenRidge limited editions for the next year, at lest) the 2 step oaking process is used, which should be an improvement. What else can we do?
Has anyone tried to skip the oak altogether and use oak tannins? (Grand Cru or similar).

Wookey

 

[DirtyDawg10]

Any thoughts on this? I don't have enough experience with oaking to comment but was waiting to see what some of you thought. I'm interested because I was thinking of possibly adding some oak to my Stag's Leap while it's bulk aging.

 

[wookey]

As no one answering, seems, it is a good field for experiment. I will divide the kit in 5 parts one is used for oaking in primary, the other in secondary, the third is to age for 1 month on oak and the fourth will not use any oak but only the oak tannin (I think Tan'cor Grand Cru or similar). The rest will be fermented without oak and use to top up the other 4. If anyone wants to do it let us all know and please post the progress here. I am going to do it in January-February, when my current experiment is finished and the 1 gal carboys are free.
Would be interesting to hear your recommendations on the kit selection for this experiment. Only one constrain the kit must not have grape pack. And of course it has to be red.

Wookey

 

[ezilyamused]

I'm also curious about oak. Have you ever added oak to a medium-priced kit (that didn't come with oak or skins), and what was the result? Does oak change the acidity so that other additives should be put into the must? I'm about to start my 2nd kit so I'm really a newbie.

 

[Ricky]

Good luck Wookey, and keep us posted on your findings

 

[ibglowin]

I know the OP is in the UK but I have not heard any complaints about oak "quality". Quantity perhaps but thats a personal thing. The manufacturers have tested their kits to no end to produce a good/great product. Some folks have decided to use oak spirals instead of supplied oak but usually thats a personal preference of American or French oak over say Hungarian which is what usually comes in many of the kits.

 

[roger80465]

ezilyamused, I have added oak to kits that did not have it in the kit. Results have been mixed. Some types of wine are better without oak. When I have been unsatisfied, it has been because I added too much. Over oaking results in musty and unpleasant flavors and takes a long time to age out, if ever. My suggestion is to begin slowly and add some to primary then taste the result. If, after clearing, you aren't satisfied, add some more in bulk aging. Oak is a matter of personal taste so proceed conservatively and you will find your happy level. Experiment away.

 

[wookey]

Mike,

There were some complains in this forum, look, for instance, at bzac kit tweaks thread. But it is not the point of my post. I am sure that the kit producers select the oak to better work in a short time of primary fermentation. So it is likely that there is no point of using the same oak in different stages and wait for much better outcome. I am going to do it only for the sake of research. What I am really interested in is some opinion on when the oak works better. From my beer experience oaking works better on later stages. But I am not sure the same logic applies in wine making.

Wookey

 

[SouthernChemist]

Yeast are capable of metabolizing some of the organic compounds in oak, particularly the harsher components according to kit manufacturers. This is the primary reason given for many kits having all the oak added upfront during primary fermentation. Adding the same oak at a different stage could potentially give a different result.

 

[joeswine]

oak a matter of

Oaking the type of and how long are all a matter of taste,experimentation and experience are the only tried and true answers to your question the type is really a difficult one to discuss,its once again taste and the wine its being added to and for how log,what is true blending chips or logs and powdered oak is a true valve to a cellar dweller /home wine maker,balancing the oak is a critical part of the structure and the body of the wine.

 

[Bartman]

Yeast are capable of metabolizing some of the organic compounds in oak, particularly the harsher components according to kit manufacturers. This is the primary reason given for many kits having all the oak added upfront during primary fermentation. Adding the same oak at a different stage could potentially give a different result.

That's news to me, but I'm certainly not an organic chemist. If that metabolization yields desirable results, do commercial wineries use that?

Apart from metabolization, the surface area and exposure time is what generally distinguishes the type and timing of oak supplied with kits. If you are looking to experiment, then it's important to note that different forms of oak have very different 'infusion' time periods - oak dust is fastest (usually used in primary) while oak beans and cubes are usually the slowest (two months or more). I prefer oak spirals that are used for 6-8 weeks and supposedly exhausted of their oakiness by that time. Of course, personal taste is the final arbiter of too little, too much, or just right.

In my experience drinking cheap, mass-produced commercial wines to small, amateurish mom-and-pop wineries' products, I have found that a strong oak flavor is often used as a mask for otherwise poor product/weak, thin or unpleasant wine flavors. I've tasted some where I could identify the type of oak used (French, heavy toast) before I could taste the grape varietal!

 

[BobF]

I wish I could find the reference ...

I recall reading that oak in the primary promotes better color binding and an earlier start on tannin polymerization as the primary (pun intended) benefit.

Some oak flavor and structuring are added as the secondary benefit in the primary ;-)

I'll post a link to the reference if/when I stumble across it again.

 

[rzevskiy7777]

Has anyone thought that oak and oaking process in kits is not optimal? I know that some winemakers a not happy with the supplied oak quality. But my main question is the oaking process. Apart from wine, I also do beer and if you want to oak your beer you have a choice of adding oak to primary, to secondary or age on oak. Trying all 3 ways, adding to primary is coming the last. It produces harshier tasted beers than other two ways.
I understand that kit producers get the best of available options. They do not want to extend aging for the general public and lots of oak in primary is the fastest way to oak your wine. But is it the best? I heard that in the new kits (Eclipse and KenRidge limited editions for the next year, at lest) the 2 step oaking process is used, which should be an improvement. What else can we do?
Has anyone tried to skip the oak altogether and use oak tannins? (Grand Cru or similar).

Wookey

On a related note where does one get oak cubes in Vancouver

 

[cpfan]

On a related note where does one get oak cubes in Vancouver

BC or WA?

if BC, have you tried the RJ Spagnols warehouse store?

Five years ago, you could get a 1kg package of cubes from Vineco stores, but it was expensive, and I doubt if many stores stocked it.

Steve

 

[rzevskiy7777]

BC or WA?

if BC, have you tried the RJ Spagnols warehouse store?

Five years ago, you could get a 1kg package of cubes from Vineco stores, but it was expensive, and I doubt if many stores stocked it.

Steve

BC and are you referring to their place on the Anacis Island?