MLF: What's Going ON?

[Steamer]

Can someone tell me what's going on? My friend and I are both doing MLF's on Chilean Chardonnay's from the same source purchased on the same day. My chard completed fermentation first so I started my MLF about 2 weeks before he would start his. I did not do an initial paper chromatography test so we thought it would be a good idea to do both now to compare my progress against his initial. Here are the results. "Bi" sample has not yet started MLF. "Br" has been under MLF for more than 2 weeks. As you can see, both samples look the same! Both are showing lactic acid and it appears that there is no progress in malic acid reduction in "Br" Did we do something wrong with the test? Did my ("Br") MLF stall?

 

[ibglowin]

They sure look like they are both partially in MLF to some extent. Did you add the MLB as per directions? Did you add any MLB nutrient? What are your temps? SO2 levels?, pH? Do you see any signs of pin bubbles? It looks to me as if your using way to much sample also. Make sure your conditions are within the ranges for your MLB and test again in 2 weeks.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Mlf can take several months to complete, a few questions:
*Which MLB are you and your buddy using?
*What temperature is the room that you are keeping the wine in?
*Did you make sure to check the expiration date on the MLB? (I've seen lhbs have expired MLB and have it stored on a shelf, not refrigerated).
*Did you test the must before adding the MLB?
*Did you follow the instructions for that particular MLB, some require rehydration, others call for directly adding it to the wine?
I would retest.
I look forward to your reply,
Tom

 

[Pumpkinman]

Mike....lol...we must have posted at the same time!
Looks like we suggest the same things.

 

[ibglowin]

Seconds apart!

 

[Steamer]

They sure look like they are both partially in MLF to some extent. Did you add the MLB as per directions? Did you add any MLB nutrient? What are your temps? SO2 levels?, pH? Do you see any signs of pin bubbles? It looks to me as if your using way to much sample also. Make sure your conditions are within the ranges for your MLB and test again in 2 weeks.

SO2 for both was 20ppm. Temp for "Br" is around 70F. Did not add nutrient. Some say to do so, others including the store where I purchased the MLB said not necessary. I used Wyeast 4007 and dumped it in per instructions. But I have not noticed any bubbles after first day or so. I did post in another thread and many said that MLF is very difficult to see and I might not see any bubbles. If your search "steamer", you'll find my other posts. It's possible I used too big of a sample. I'm going to run another test today.

 

[Steamer]

Mlf can take several months to complete, a few questions:
*Which MLB are you and your buddy using?
*What temperature is the room that you are keeping the wine in?
*Did you make sure to check the expiration date on the MLB? (I've seen lhbs have expired MLB and have it stored on a shelf, not refrigerated).
*Did you test the must before adding the MLB?
*Did you follow the instructions for that particular MLB, some require rehydration, others call for directly adding it to the wine?
I would retest.
I look forward to your reply,
Tom

A point of clarification: Although we are using Wyeast 4007, at the time of the test, my buddy (sample Bi) had NOT introduced his mlb yet. That's why I can't understand why both of our samples are showing Lactic, AND at similar levels.

 

[ibglowin]

ANY chance of cross contamination from a spoon used to stir both wines to reusing a pipette or even a racking hose or cane etc......

 

[Steamer]

ANY chance of cross contamination from a spoon used to stir both wines to reusing a pipette or even a racking hose or cane etc......

I don't think so. My buddy set up the paper and used separate pipettes for each standard then for his own wine sample. I brought a small sample of my wine and used a separate pipette for it. Our wines are not near each other.

 

[robie]

I didn't see what your pH value is. Too low a pH can prevent MLF. Depending on the specific MLB, typically it need to be 3.30 or over unless you are using a special MLB specifically for low pH. What is the pH limit of your MLB?

Since alcoholic fermentation was completed before you started MLF, it is always best to use a nutrient for the MLB. Still, it should have at least started.

If no results in another week or two, try raising the temperature to about 72F. Raising the temp made my last MLF take off, even though it was higher than the specs said it needed to be.

 

[Turock]

I just DO NOT like that Wyeast MLB!!!!! Even under ideal conditions, it seems to not go to completion. If the test keeps showing malic, with little or no conversion, get a packet of Baachus MLB and re-inoculate. It will finish in 2 weeks.

We recently had a Pinot Noir become stuck with that Wyeast culture--finally gave up on it and pitched in the Baachus. It finished with NO problem.

 

[Steamer]

I just DO NOT like that Wyeast MLB!!!!! Even under ideal conditions, it seems to not go to completion. If the test keeps showing malic, with little or no conversion, get a packet of Baachus MLB and re-inoculate. It will finish in 2 weeks.

We recently had a Pinot Noir become stuck with that Wyeast culture--finally gave up on it and pitched in the Baachus. It finished with NO problem.

Thanks. I'm testing again today. I'm being very careful with sample sizes, etc. If I don't see any improvement I'll re-inoculate with Bachus. I assume it's OK to add both? Should I add nutrient also?

 

[Turock]

Yes, I would add the nutrient with the Baachus. After a few days, take another chromo test to ensure it has taken off again.

 

[Steamer]

Yes, I would add the nutrient with the Baachus. After a few days, take another chromo test to ensure it has taken off again.

I did a chromatography test last night. Attached are results. W1 is the Chard to which I added Wyeast 4007 on May 12, about 3 weeks ago. W2 is also an identical Chard, bought same time and place. I stabilized W2 about around May 9 and DID NOT add MLB, only some oak. Both carboys are sitting on the same bench but the only time I removed the airlock on W2 was to take a sample. Further, I sampled W2 first to avoid cross-contamination. The chromatography test seems to indicate that W2 is making better progress. Our test kit is brand new. If I had tested W1 alone I think I'd be happy with the results, but I just can't understand what's happening with the non-inoculated wines. Look at my earlier post for another example. Thanks for all you help but I sure am puzzled.

 

[robie]

It truly looks like W2 underwent a spontaneous MLF of its own. That's the way early MLF's were done before wine makers realized how to start and/or prevent them.

I can't think of any other reason, because W2 appears to have definitely undergone MLF.

However, it does seem a high dose of KMETA at stabilization would have prevented and MLF in W2.

Wish I had a better answer for you.

 

[Steamer]

It truly looks like W2 underwent a spontaneous MLF of its own. That's the way early MLF's were done before wine makers realized how to start and/or prevent them.

I can't think of any other reason, because W2 appears to have definitely undergone MLF.

However, it does seem a high dose of KMETA at stabilization would have prevented and MLF in W2.

Wish I had a better answer for you.

Yeh, I didn't mention that W2 did get 1/4 tsp sulfite.

 

[Pumpkinman]

As crazy as this may sound, since one wine that was inoculated with MLB and one that wasn't are both showing that they are currently goung through MLF, either one may have been "cross contaminated" as Robie suggested, or, it is possible that the Wyeast MLB wasn't viable, and these are both going through spontaneous MLF.
I understand that this is a bit far fetched, I would run another chromatography test.
Do you still have the Wyeast MLB package?
I'd be interested in seeing the date on it, I've never heard of anyone using Wyeast MLB, I didn't know one existed. I use Wyeast liquid yeast when brewing beer.
Tom

 

[Turock]

Remember that it's wise to isolate your MLF's from the winery. Rinsing tools,etc. in the winery can infect your other wines. You don't want that bacteria as a permanent resident in your winery or you risk having everything go thru a spontainious MLF.