MLF and Juice Buckets

[Mario Dinis]

No, it won't ruin the wine if it doesn't complete MLF, it'll just won't convert the malic acid to lactic acid. If I were going to try that product again, I'd consider strongly inoculating the must with it just after lag phase of the yeast, it's a better environment for the MLB when there's little / no alcohol yet, and the warm fermentation temps will also help it along. You'll greatly increase your chances of success by feeding both the yeast and the MLB the proper nutrients.

Basically at the beginning of primary fermentation? what nutrients would you recomend?

 

[Johnd]

Basically at the beginning of primary fermentation? what nutrients would you recomend?

Yes, basically in the beginning of alcoholic fermentation, good timing is when you start to see visible activity or get your first cap. I prefer to use this product: https://morewinemaking.com/products/opti-malo.html

 

[Mario Dinis]

Yes, basically in the beginning of alcoholic fermentation, good timing is when you start to see visible activity or get your first cap. I prefer to use this product: https://morewinemaking.com/products/opti-malo.html

Thanks. I'm assuming that when the first fermentation is over and the MLF is still going, using this method of course, the wine gets racked to a carboy (I use carboys) and topped off to avoid air exposure. Am I correct? I'm just trying to get an understanding on how to do a MLF for the first time.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thanks. I'm assuming that when the first fermentation is over and the MLF is still going, using this method of course, the wine gets racked to a carboy (I use carboys) and topped off to avoid air exposure. Am I correct? I'm just trying to get an understanding on how to do a MLF for the first time.

Yup, that is right. Just don't add k-meta when you rack to carboys. (And your topping wine shouldn't be heavily sulfited, for that matter, but I am probably overstating the case.)

 

[cmason1957]

Yup, that is right. Just don't add k-meta when you rack to carboys. (And your topping wine shouldn't be heavily sulfited, for that matter, but I am probably overstating the case.)

You aren't over stating with the Wyeast MLB, my memory tells me that it can't handle over 15 or so PPM of sulphite. That pretty well means, don't add any when you first get the juice bucket, none when you rack to your carboy, none until MLF is complete and hope your chosen yeast doesn't make to much sulphites.

 

[Mario Dinis]

You aren't over stating with the Wyeast MLB, my memory tells me that it can't handle over 15 or so PPM of sulphite. That pretty well means, don't add any when you first get the juice bucket, none when you rack to your carboy, none until MLF is complete and hope your chosen yeast doesn't make to much sulphites.

Thank you so much for your help, really appreciate it. I'm going to use D80 and D254 yeast this year. Also, can the carboy under MLF be topped off with similar store bought wine? Will a bottle make a difference in a 6 gallon carboy under MLF? asking this because of the sulphites issue.

 

[cmason1957]

Thank you so much for your help, really appreciate it. I'm going to use D80 and D254 yeast this year. Also, can the carboy under MLF be topped off with similar store bought wine? Will a bottle make a difference in a 6 gallon carboy under MLF? asking this because of the sulphites issue.

I wouldn't top it up, when you first move it to secondary and hopefully your mlf finishes before to long, then the sulphites in the top up wine won't matter. They probably won't anyway, since they will get dispersed throughout the receiving wine.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I wouldn't top it up, when you first move it to secondary and hopefully your mlf finishes before to long, then the sulphites in the top up wine won't matter. They probably won't anyway, since they will get dispersed throughout the receiving wine.

Again, thanks for all these tips. It's my first attempt at MLF, I hope it comes out ok.

 

[Mario Dinis]

This link from More Winemaking is selling 2.5 g of VP41 and it's for 66 gal. Is this too much for two 6 gallon carboys? I read that a lot of you here have used this strain. Can someone help me out here with these numbers?

 

[Johnd]

This link from More Winemaking is selling 2.5 g of VP41 and it's for 66 gal. Is this too much for two 6 gallon carboys? I read that a lot of you here have used this strain. Can someone help me out here with these numbers?

No, it's not too much, and VP41 is a very reliable workhorse MLB, it's the one that I use as well. Best practice with this stuff is to get the MLB, plus the ACTI-ML that you use to rehydrate it, plus the Opti-Malo that you use to feed it. When you rehydrate your MLB, just after AF gets started, use 250 ml of distilled water, mix in the 50 g package of ACTI-ML, then mix in your MLB. When you have it all mixed in well, just dump it into your fermenter and mix well. Add half the recommended dose of Opti-Malo, and forget about it for a while. Rack your wine out of your fermenter at SG of around 1.000, and let the wine sit in an airlocked carboy for 48-72 hours, then rack off of the gross lees, and add the second half dose of your Opti-Malo, top up the carboy, and let it sit for a couple of weeks, allowing MLF to complete. You could gently stir the sediment back up 2-3 times a week if you like. After the two weeks is up, start testing for completion, and once it's complete, let it sit for two more weeks, then rack (if you have sediment) and add your first dose of SO2. You can test for completion with either a paper chromotography kit, or malic test strips.

VP-41 is a bit pricey for just doing 6 gallons, but it doesn't come in any smaller packages.

 

[Mario Dinis]

No, it's not too much, and VP41 is a very reliable workhorse MLB, it's the one that I use as well. Best practice with this stuff is to get the MLB, plus the ACTI-ML that you use to rehydrate it, plus the Opti-Malo that you use to feed it. When you rehydrate your MLB, just after AF gets started, use 250 ml of distilled water, mix in the 50 g package of ACTI-ML, then mix in your MLB. When you have it all mixed in well, just dump it into your fermenter and mix well. Add half the recommended dose of Opti-Malo, and forget about it for a while. Rack your wine out of your fermenter at SG of around 1.000, and let the wine sit in an airlocked carboy for 48-72 hours, then rack off of the gross lees, and add the second half dose of your Opti-Malo, top up the carboy, and let it sit for a couple of weeks, allowing MLF to complete. You could gently stir the sediment back up 2-3 times a week if you like. After the two weeks is up, start testing for completion, and once it's complete, let it sit for two more weeks, then rack (if you have sediment) and add your first dose of SO2. You can test for completion with either a paper chromotography kit, or malic test strips.

VP-41 is a bit pricey for just doing 6 gallons, but it doesn't come in any smaller packages.

Thanks for your information. I don't do grapes, I do juice, don't have the room to do the grapes. So based on this detail, can I split the package in half and use half in each 6 gal carboy? My other question is that I'm going to use D80 and D254 for Malec, Petite Sirah and Merlot. How is the SO2 build up with these two yeasts? read that some yeasts create a lot of SO2 which doesn't help with MLF.

 

[Mario Dinis]

No, it's not too much, and VP41 is a very reliable workhorse MLB, it's the one that I use as well. Best practice with this stuff is to get the MLB, plus the ACTI-ML that you use to rehydrate it, plus the Opti-Malo that you use to feed it. When you rehydrate your MLB, just after AF gets started, use 250 ml of distilled water, mix in the 50 g package of ACTI-ML, then mix in your MLB. When you have it all mixed in well, just dump it into your fermenter and mix well. Add half the recommended dose of Opti-Malo, and forget about it for a while. Rack your wine out of your fermenter at SG of around 1.000, and let the wine sit in an airlocked carboy for 48-72 hours, then rack off of the gross lees, and add the second half dose of your Opti-Malo, top up the carboy, and let it sit for a couple of weeks, allowing MLF to complete. You could gently stir the sediment back up 2-3 times a week if you like. After the two weeks is up, start testing for completion, and once it's complete, let it sit for two more weeks, then rack (if you have sediment) and add your first dose of SO2. You can test for completion with either a paper chromotography kit, or malic test strips.

VP-41 is a bit pricey for just doing 6 gallons, but it doesn't come in any smaller packages.

What's your take on CH-16 vs VP-41?

 

[Johnd]

Thanks for your information. I don't do grapes, I do juice, don't have the room to do the grapes. So based on this detail, can I split the package in half and use half in each 6 gal carboy? My other question is that I'm going to use D80 and D254 for Malec, Petite Sirah and Merlot. How is the SO2 build up with these two yeasts? read that some yeasts create a lot of SO2 which doesn't help with MLF.

Yes. Once you have mixed the water, ACTI-ML, and MLB together, you can split it in half, or thirds, or quarters, whatever you need to do, and put it in, no worries.

I've used VP41 with both D80 and D254 with no issues, even with BM 4x4 (which is a moderate SO2 producer), and have never had an issue. Co-inoculating eases the stresses caused by SO2, and VP41 has a very good SO2 tolerance. As long as you don't add any sulfites, keep your pH above 3.3, temps in the 70 - 90 range, it should go off without a hitch.

 

[Johnd]

What's your take on CH-16 vs VP-41?

I haven't used it personally, but lots of winemakers here have, and it does very well also.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Yes. Once you have mixed the water, ACTI-ML, and MLB together, you can split it in half, or thirds, or quarters, whatever you need to do, and put it in, no worries.

I've used VP41 with both D80 and D254 with no issues, even with BM 4x4 (which is a moderate SO2 producer), and have never had an issue. Co-inoculating eases the stresses caused by SO2, and VP41 has a very good SO2 tolerance. As long as you don't add any sulfites, keep your pH above 3.3, temps in the 70 - 90 range, it should go off without a hitch.

Thank you so much.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I haven't used it personally, but lots of winemakers here have, and it does very well also.

Thank you so much

 

[CDrew]

What's your take on CH-16 vs VP-41?

I’ve used CH16 the last 2 years and 5 different wines. 100% reliable so far. No need to hydrate - just add directly to the wine. Planning to use again this year starting with Syrah I’ll pick on Saturday.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Awesome, thank you. I'm planning on making Malbec, Petite Sirah and Merlot this year. First attempt at MLF.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I’ve used CH16 the last 2 years and 5 different wines. 100% reliable so far. No need to hydrate - just add directly to the wine. Planning to use again this year starting with Syrah I’ll pick on Saturday.

Awesome, thank you. I'm planning on making Malbec, Petite Sirah and Merlot this year. First attempt at MLF.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Hi again, can anyone recommend a decent and affordable chromatography test kit?