Making Wine like a winery....

[agdodge4x4]

I have visited a few wineries and they all seem to NOT backsweeten their wines. They say the grapes are sweet enough as they are and they start off at 24% sugar, end at 12% alcohol or so and the wines are sweet like they should be.

My question is, how do they ever do this reliably? Do they test it hourly until the alcohol content is just right and stabilize it?

If I wanted to do this at home, so that I don't have to backsweeten, what is the method to do it? We like our wines sweet...like 1/2C of sugar to the gallon sweet.

How could I accomplish that by putting the right amount of sugar in before fermentation starts and stopping it when its ready?

 

[winemaker_3352]

My guess would be the type of yeast used.

If you use a yeast that tolerates only a 12% ABV and the Brix harvested at was 24 or higher - then it would end up sweet.

 

[cpfan]

How could I accomplish that by putting the right amount of sugar in before fermentation starts and stopping it when its ready?

For the home winemaker, stopping the ferment is the fun part. It's pretty hard to stop active yeast. I'm not sure how wineries stop the yeast but some have large stainless steel tanks with cooling jackets around them. I bet that getting the wine cold, plays a big part in stopping the ferment.

Steve

 

[winemaker_3352]

For the home winemaker, stopping the ferment is the fun part. It's pretty hard to stop active yeast. I'm not sure how wineries stop the yeast but some have large stainless steel tanks with cooling jackets around them. I bet that getting the wine cold, plays a big part in stopping the ferment.

Steve

That makes sense - once they stop - they probably sulphite it, sorbate it, and filter out the yeasties.

 

[robie]

They have to filter out the yeast completely. It takes a very special and expensive filtration system to filter out all the yeast from a wine.

If even one live yeast is left in a wine that still has sugar, fermentation will start again. If even one wild yeast gets into the wine it will start fermenting again. I would assume they would also have to add sorbate.

Same problem if they use a low alcohol tolerant yeast, which dies when the alcohol content gets high enough. What if a wild yeast comes along?

Some wineries dump brandy into the fermenting wine. Enough of it will kill the yeast instantly, but that adds a lot of alcohol to the wine.

Freezing or very cold temps can stop yeast, but they can warm and start working again.

The commercial wine makers I have spoken with will generally ferment to dry, then back sweeten. Although, I do know not all wines are made sweet this way, as some do use filtration.

The moral of the story - don't try this at home; just ferment to dry, add sorbate, then back sweeten; you likely won't be able to tell the difference, except for the alcohol level.

 

[Runningwolf]

Is it possible for a winery to stop a fermentation, yes. I have high doubts if many of them do it. The risks are high. I also don't believe everything they tell the public. They all have their secrets and thats business.

 

[agdodge4x4]

I don't know, I just know that the ones I talked to said they do NOT back sweeten. So, how they accomplish sweet wine without doing that...well, there are only a handful of ways to do it.

Personally, I ferment to dry, then right before bottling, I take a little of the wine and sweeten it with 1/2 cup invert sugar, put it back in the jug, swirl it around a bit to mix, and then it goes straight into the bottles. I don't test anything...I know that 1/2 cup of sugar in a gallon of 995 wine is perfect for our tastes.

So far, so good, but I was just curious about the commercial wineries.

 

[mmadmikes1]

Red Grape wines that are sweet suck(my opinion) but the wineries I have been into during production do add sugar. I watched them do it. Most commercial wines are filtered so they look better and to prevent sediment in bottles. If they are sat they stopped fermentation, I don't believe it.Risk is to high.
White wines like Rieslings are sweetened using swiss reserve method. Yes they add sulfate and sorbate to most, read the labels. They do sweeten if they are making a sweet wine

 

[Midwest Vintner]

They have to filter out the yeast completely. It takes a very special and expensive filtration system to filter out all the yeast from a wine.

If even one live yeast is left in a wine that still has sugar, fermentation will start again. If even one wild yeast gets into the wine it will start fermenting again. I would assume they would also have to add sorbate.

Same problem if they use a low alcohol tolerant yeast, which dies when the alcohol content gets high enough. What if a wild yeast comes along?

Some wineries dump brandy into the fermenting wine. Enough of it will kill the yeast instantly, but that adds a lot of alcohol to the wine.

Freezing or very cold temps can stop yeast, but they can warm and start working again.

The commercial wine makers I have spoken with will generally ferment to dry, then back sweeten. Although, I do know not all wines are made sweet this way, as some do use filtration.

The moral of the story - don't try this at home; just ferment to dry, add sorbate, then back sweeten; you likely won't be able to tell the difference, except for the alcohol level.

Filtering out yeast isn't that expensive, but it may not work. Filters are not perfect. Filters have efficiency ratings and none are 100%. The jackets are for slowing the fermentation process or cold stabilization/separating solids, typically. Wild yeast does not ferment very high usually, so that is not usually the issue. The yeast used on site might still exist is the primary problem. It might jump into the batch again from another wine or still be alive after whatever treatment was implemented. I am not sure if adding brandy to wine is even legal. You cannot add anything to a product like wine without disclosing it on the label, typically. I know our license prohibits us from doing certain things such as this. "Contains Sulfites," is a term that does NOT imply that sulfites were added to the wine by themselves, but that the product has a certain amount of them. Many fruits naturally have enough sulfites to require the term on the label. I'm not sure if ANY wine is actually sulfite free, but can get the term with a very small amount in it. It's not about the addition of sulfites during production, but just having them at all.

Grape wineries use a brix tester and typically have control over their product in some way whether it's their grapes or are contracted/vouched for from a vineyard. I think most wineries have their own methods, as do home wine makers. Trying to stop a fermentation doesn't seem to be a good method, but controlling what goes into the wine to begin with, works much better.

I'm not saying how we do it.

I'm going to have to agree with everyone, technically. All methods are probably done by different wineries. The amount of money you have and how you make your wine, may determine your choice of how things are employed in wine making. The tried and true method of most wineries, especially the smaller ones, is to just let it kill itself. Whether that is by not giving it enough sugar or using a less tolerant abv yeast to begin with.

 

[docanddeb]

"Sweet" is a relative term. I have had people say that Merlot is too SWEET. Balance of acid can make a huge difference in the "perception" of SWEET. We all like what we like. Ice Wine is SWEET!!!!!!! Glycerin can increase the perception of SWEET. There are a lot of "tricks of the trade" to sell wine. When you find a commercial wine you like... test it. Find out the acid level and the SG. Test many... you'll find much variation, yet you like them all. The palate is a tricky thing!

Debbie

 

[Midwest Vintner]

"Sweet" is a relative term. I have had people say that Merlot is too SWEET. Balance of acid can make a huge difference in the "perception" of SWEET. We all like what we like. Ice Wine is SWEET!!!!!!! Glycerin can increase the perception of SWEET. There are a lot of "tricks of the trade" to sell wine. When you find a commercial wine you like... test it. Find out the acid level and the SG. Test many... you'll find much variation, yet you like them all. The palate is a tricky thing!

Debbie

SO TRUE!!! I used to HATE high tannic/high acidic wines, now I'm more receptive to different styles. We have been playing with wine now for 7 years (dang time flies!!!) and have been tweaking and changing things constantly. I think getting the best finish is the hardest part. I very much agree with your assessment after doing my own logging and testing. Could not believe it sometimes.

 

[joea132]

Is it possible for a winery to stop a fermentation, yes. I have high doubts if many of them do it. The risks are high. I also don't believe everything they tell the public. They all have their secrets and thats business.

I've got to agree here. The most award winning winery in our area which focuses on sweeter wines backsweetens. He just came out on top of the Finger Lakes this last year too and swears against filtering. Think of the energy costs and labor that would go into chilling, filtering and shocking the yeast. It would not be sound business practice to go through all this when you can achieve the same result in one step.

 

[robie]

"Sweet" is a relative term. I have had people say that Merlot is too SWEET. Balance of acid can make a huge difference in the "perception" of SWEET. We all like what we like. Ice Wine is SWEET!!!!!!! Glycerin can increase the perception of SWEET. There are a lot of "tricks of the trade" to sell wine. When you find a commercial wine you like... test it. Find out the acid level and the SG. Test many... you'll find much variation, yet you like them all. The palate is a tricky thing!

Debbie

The alcohol level can also add a perception of sweetness. Actually, alcohol under about 40% ABV does taste sweet.

That's why really fruit-forward wines, made from very ripe (higher brix) fruit can have a little hint of sweetness - more from the higher alcohol than anything else.

 

[grandwinecellar]

wine

You are rirht. All wine is found 24% sugar and 12% alcohol and till taste is so Sweet.

 

[Manimal]

Think of the energy costs and labor that would go into chilling, filtering and shocking the yeast. It would not be sound business practice to go through all this when you can achieve the same result in one step.

The problem I have with this line of argument is the assumption that the result is the "same." Most (but not all) producers of really top quality sweet/off-dry wines do so by stopping fermentation, not adding sugar back post-fermentation. And having experience with wines made both ways (both commercially and at home), I can say with certainty that backsweetening generally results in a simpler, somewhat flat and diluted wine compared to wines created by halting fermentation.

By the way, it is not all that hard to stop fermentation. If the wine is fermented cool to start with so that it progresses slowly, it is relatively easy to rack it off the lees, sulphur and chill the wine which will stop fermentation relatively quickly. The wine is then kept cold and once it settles clear, it is racked again and sterile filtered (or you could use sorbate.)

 

[Midwest Vintner]

The problem I have with this line of argument is the assumption that the result is the "same." Most (but not all) producers of really top quality sweet/off-dry wines do so by stopping fermentation, not adding sugar back post-fermentation. And having experience with wines made both ways (both commercially and at home), I can say with certainty that backsweetening generally results in a simpler, somewhat flat and diluted wine compared to wines created by halting fermentation.

By the way, it is not all that hard to stop fermentation. If the wine is fermented cool to start with so that it progresses slowly, it is relatively easy to rack it off the lees, sulphur and chill the wine which will stop fermentation relatively quickly. The wine is then kept cold and once it settles clear, it is racked again and sterile filtered (or you could use sorbate.)

I am not so sure. IMO, having sugars left are going to taste sweet. Distinguishing between residual sugar left after fermentation and backsweetened wine should be nill. The only arguement I can see from that stand point, is that you are not allowing the wine to kill itself and thus possibly lower the H2S created. I would like some examples of wines that do are for sure doing this. These wineries must be large as it would be very cost prohibitive for a smaller winery. I know that stone hill winery has cooling jackets for cold "seperation" as they call it and for cold stabilization from touring. Not sure if they are chilling and killing yeast or how they are doing it. I know that their wines are not the greatest, but are descent.

Also, do you not think that filtering to .45 micron does any harm to the wine?

I'm not trying to be an arse, but I would like a descent discussion on this subject.

 

[Sirs]

couldn't they do similar to what I do when I'm wanting to make a wine with not so much alcohol? What I do is make 2 batches of same wine at the same time, 1 I will make normal for me which is keep adding sugar till the yeast dies from the alcohol and the other I let ferment dry normally at 12% or close to it once done the higher abv. one will normally be a bit sweet or at least seem to be. I'll then blend the 2 together to get a semi sweet but lower abv. wine no sorbate no nothing. I don't stop fermentation I just do it different. Of course this is with wild yeast so not sure what wine yeast would do doing this.

 

[ibglowin]

Here is how I suspect the big boys are doing it. This is Chateau St. Michelle in Woodinville, WA. They are one of the largest producers of wine in the US. This is their white wine production room. The large pot on the left hand side is a centrifuge and on the right is a huge plate filter. I think they can get rid of all the yeast they need to with this set up. They make some of the best off dry Riesling and Gewurztraminer available for the $$ IMHO.

 

[AlFulchino]

i wanted to see what Mike would post..beautiful picture....and i like Dan's answer...secrets too

 

[Manimal]

I work in the wine industry in Niagara, and I can attest to the fact that few quality-minded producers making serious sweet or off-dry wines in this region are adding sugar post fermentation. Sure, adding sugar is widely practiced for entry level wines, but it is generally frowned upon for higher quality wines.

Adding a very small amount of sugar to tweak the balance of a wine would not likely have any negative impact and may improve it, however if you need to add enough sugar to make a dry wine sweet or off-dry that is a pretty major addition. I find wines made this way tend to lack the depth of flavour and intensity of wines produced by retaining natural residual sugar and the balance is often awkward... an off-dry Riesling with 12% alc. just doesn't seem as well balanced as one with 10% alc. and naturally occurring residual sugar. Also, I've never heard of any winemakers who have had any more significant problems with H2S in wines produced this way than in their regular ferments.

In addition, you're not really killing the yeast through this method, just dropping the temperature enough to make fermentation stop and then removing the yeast through racking/filtration.

Also, do you not think that filtering to .45 micron does any harm to the wine?

I don't see any viable alternative for commercial wineries for sweet wines. Sorbate can cause off-aromas/flavours and as such is not an option for premium wines. And since most aromatic compounds and colloids which may impact mouthfeel are smaller than .45 microns in white wines (some large phenolic complexes in reds may be large enough to be disturbed by filtration) I don't see any high chance of quality loss by sterile filtration provided it is performed carefully. Also, you don't need to use sterile filtration for the initial clarification. Yeast cells are usually about 1 micron in size and so a coarse filtration followed by about .65 to 1 micron will effectively remove enough of the yeast cells to inhibit fermentation provided the wine is kept cool. Sterile filtration would be needed immediately prior to bottling.

I don't think that making wines through this process is inherently more suited to large producers. It is much easier to chill down a small volume of wine quickly than a large one. Most premium producers here have cooling jackets with glycol systems, immersible chilling plates or small heat exchangers. Sure, most of these tools are expensive, but if a winery wants to produce premium wine they are worth the money. I'm sure there are budget methods for achieving the same ends, also... winemakers are generally masters of innovation when they need to be.

Our industry here is made up of only a few large wineries with most producers being small to mid-size (<15,000 cases.) Most of the premium producers practicing the method I've talked about above are on the small side.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but I think that this is an interesting topic and I want to be sure that any home winemakers thinking of making a sweet wine by attempting to stop fermentation have an accurate understanding of the potential risks and benefits. I often think that home winemakers shy away from certain techniques due to unfounded fear and lack of experience. Also, I wanted to stick up for the commercial wineries since I work in the industry and I think that most quality producers are pretty upfront about their production methods with little to hide.