WineXpert Kit Taste in Other Kits or just a WE issue?

[dfwwino]

The forum members have been making wine with Mosti Mondiale for nearly a year. I'm curious if anyone has detected any kit taste in MM kits? I have not. Has anyone had experience making kits from RJ Spagnols and Cellar Craft? If so, have you detected kit taste in kits made by those manufacturers? Based on my experience and research, this seems to be a problem with Winexpert kits, and primarily among Vintner's Reserve reds, Selection Original and Selection International reds.I have not seen any posts associating kit taste with WE Selection Estate, Selection Limited Edition, or Crushendo kits. I would appreciate any feedback from others who have detected kit taste. My post is motivated by a post by Tim Vandergrift in the "other forum" in which he attributes kit taste to winemaker fault (failure to follow instructions, failure to age, and failure to properly degas), rather than the kit itself. I disagree with Tim and thinkthe problem lies with the concentrate, though ageand proper degassing do lessen the degree of kit taste. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[laneygirl]

Hi Wade,
What do you mean by kit taste? Do you mean an overall similar taste from one kit to another? I just started making wine last fall after having made homebrew for 10+ years. Since then I have tried a variety of Winexpert kits including their Selection Original Pinot Noir and Merlot.


The Pinot was bottled last December and is pretty good although suffers from not being degassed properly. The Merlot was bottled last March is pretty drinkable, although I don't think it's that great of a Merlot. I keep hoping that aging will help these....and so now


I have also now tried to Selection Estate: Lodi Ranch 11 Cabernet Savignon and Lodi Old Vines Zinfandel which have been in the bottle for 2 1/2 months and I finally tried the Zin this weekend. I thought it was pretty good, but decided to try a 2007 Winexpert Limited Edition Australian Grenache/Mourvedre and also twoCellar Craft kits which come with big crush packs.


The Winexpert is about ready to bottle after bulk aging for 6+ weeks. I bought two of CC 2007 Limited Edition kits that were closing out: Cabernet/Spanish Temperanillo and Two Latitude Merlot. So, unfortunately I'm a long way from tasting them in their bottled/aged state. I took a SG reading tonight onthe Cabernet/Spanish Temperanillo and I think it does taste like it has more tannins and depth than my previous kits....but time will tell.


I have been considering a Mosti Mondiale - All Juice and encouraged by the reviews I've read on the forum and discussed with George on Friday.


I hope this helps.

 

[laneygirl]

I'm sorry I addressed that last post to Wade...must have had that stuck in from reading some other post from him.


One other thing I am wondering about is whether to go with Winexpert Limited Edition kits for 2008 or stick with Cellar Craft. I think there are some great styles being offered in both brands...but then again, I want to try the Mosti Mondiale and I may just have to build another wine rack to store all of it!

 

[Dean]

I've only done the CellarCraft showcase series of kits that have the grape packs and none of them have kit taste. I've not done their regular lineup of just regular juice kits.

95% of the RJS kits I've do not have kit taste. Only 2 have had it, but that was also to a very minor degree, and it was in the lesser Grand Cru series (10L). I also found those kits to be a little thin, hence I don't do those reds anymore. I've not experienced KT in any white kit.

I do get strong KT in most WE reds from VR on up to selection estate. I think it is caused by the way they extract the color and tannins that changes the sugars into furfurols. I do believe that WE has a proprietary concentration process that is quite different from other manufacturers.

I don't do a lot of the Limiteds, but the crushendo series seems to age out the KT. I've never tasted even a hint of it with MM.Edited by: Dean

 

[summersolstice]

I've made numerous kits from WE, CC, RJS, and Heron Bay. All have exhibited the characteristic "kit taste" to one degree or another. The reds have a far more pronounced kit taste and the whites less so. "KT" isn't restricted to WE products and the consensus seems to point toward factors such as heat[ame="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozillan-USfficial&hs=9Dp&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=pasteurization&spell=1"][/ame]pasteurization, concentrating the juice, or other factors common to all kit manufacturing processes. Proper degassing, aging and the addition of grape packs in the bigger kits moderate or, in some cases, nearly eliminate the kit taste. At least that's been my experience...

One can make a very good wine suited to one's preferences and still not have a wine that exactly matches the characteristics of a particular variety. Does that make it an inferior wine? No. I personally make wine that I like to drink.

 

[dfwwino]

Laney,


Kit taste is a term used to describe a taste/smell detected by some in certain wine kits. Some have called it a "jolley rancher" candy flavor. It tends to arise in the lower cost kits to the greatest degree. Apparently, not all persons detect it either. There are numerous other posts discussing the potential causes of kit taste, attributing the flavor to winemaking faults and concentrate issues. If you don't notice anything now, don't worry about it. Enjoy your wine.


In disagreement with Tim's post, I donot believe all kit taste can be eliminated by aging, proper degassing and following kit instructions. I believe it is inherent in the concentrate process, though accentuated when wines are not well aged or degassed. I did not mean to start yet another discussion about kit taste in general, but am mainly curious about obtaining feedback from persons who do detect kit taste in wine kits. In particular, I'd like to know which kits they made that have little or no detectable kit taste. My spouse has a very well-tuned ability to taste anddoes not likethe kit taste, so I try to make wine that has little or no kit taste. I certainly agree that kit taste does not mean kits are inferior. They just sometimes have unique flavors/smells not present in commercial wines. I was just posting to obtain feedback from others about whether they have detected kit taste in MM products, CC or RJ Spagnol products, or WE Cruschendo, Estate or LE products. I have been very happy that the MM products I have tasted and/or made do not have kit taste. My goal is to buy kits where there is minimal risk of kit taste. I have personal experience with just two manufacturers: Mosti Mondiale and Winexpert. I have not detected kit taste in MM products. I have detected kit taste consistently in Vintner's Reserve reds, and have detected kit taste in Selection Original and International (including an Argentine Malbec currently aging). I have not detected it in a WE Estate, Limited Edition or Crushendo yet. Am I safe assuming that the latter three types of kits consistently make wine with minimal or no kit taste?Edited by: dfwwino

 

[laneygirl]

Hi DFW,


Thanks for the clarification on what kit taste is...jolly rancher....not what I'm looking for in a wine, either and am interested in buying better kits that approximate what I can buy for anywhere from $8-$20/bottle and so far question whether any that I have tasted approximate that. I may be critical of my own product, but am planning on saving up for a MM kit so it will be in my experiment. What does WE do different in their Selection Original/International vs. Estate/Limited Edition kits that would make their concentrate different? The Crushendo makes a little more sense due to the actual grapes/skins that are involved.


Thanks for the discussion....I'll stay posted for some other people's input that may have more experience on kit taste.

 

[Wade E]

The Estate and limiteds are most commonly 18 liters vrs. the typical 15 liters of juice in the Sel. orig. and International. The more juice the better the kit.

 

[dfwwino]

Laney,


Unfortunately, we'll never know what WE does different, if anything, as the kit manufacturers do not disclose their wine kitmaking process. (Heck, Mosti Mondiale would not even tell George what yeast they used in the Fresco Palomino juice because I was curious whether it was a sherry yeast to make sherry, or another yeast to make a table wine). I agree with Wade that the Estate and Limited Editions have two more liters of juice, which helps, and the Estate Cruschendos have grape packs. But I also suspect WE uses a better quality varietal juice. PerhapsWE uses a base blend to lower the cost of the Original and International kits, but this is pure speculation on my part.Edited by: dfwwino

 

[smurfe]

I have made primarily Wine Expert kits since I started. I have detected the "aroma" described in every Red WE kit I have ever made. It does go away with aging the wine but I have found that for me it takes close to 2 years for the wine to develop before I can determine the specific varietal of the particular wine. The red wine I made when I did my photo tutorial is just starting to loose the kit aroma. I am still going to give it another 6 months before I open another bottle.


I have made 2 Cellar Craft kits with grape packs, the Amarone and Rosso Fortissimo and I detected none of this aroma or taste with them. I just started my first Mosti kit this week so I can't give any input there but I am hoping there is a difference. I will say that the kit aroma is my primary motivator that helps me leave my wines for a couple years to mature.

 

[dfwwino]

I've been making wine since 1994 and kits since only a few years ago. I had always let my fresh fruit and fresh grape wines bulk age in the carboy for a year to two years before bottling. I recall when kit wines first showed up at my lhbs. I was mystified how it was possible to produce drinkable wine in 4, 6 or 8 weeks. It did not make any sense. Now, after making kits and reading posts of other kit winemakers, I must say the kit manufacturers are the source of the problem with their misleading promotional statements. While it is true you can ferment grape juice, degas and obtain a 12% alcohol wine in 4-8 weeks, that does not mean it is ready to drink. And while kit manufacturers work hard to formulate juice and combine yeast the produces the wine requiring the least amount of aging, what's funny is now Tim Vandergrift and other kit proponents promote regular, long-term aging of kit wine before drinking, which is the traditional process used by winemakers. Despite Vandergrift's recommendation, the kit manufacturers continue to promote wine ready for drinking in 4-8 weeks. With the exception of the wine cooler type beverages with a much lower alcohol level, these claims are simply misleading and lead to thedrinking of wine prematurely. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[smurfe]

Well in all honesty the wine is quite drinkable in the time frame they describe. It just isn't really that good. Wine kits will make an excellent wine though if give the proper time and care. I have drank kit wines that were as good or better than any commercial produced wine. It can happen.










One point to remember though is that we here in the US are not the target market for these companies. It is the Canadian market. Cheap wine is priced outrageous there so the kit companies fill the bill. Marketing to this group is focused on getting this group to regularly make kits so they can sell a kit a month or so to the average winemaker there. They want them to "trunk age" their wine meaning make it, when done throw it in the trunk and drive it home and drink it. Go back and make another kit.


You are correct though. It is the manufacturers that make the claim these wines are ready to drink in 4-8 weeks. In reality they are. We just know they are not good as stated. Tim will be the first to tell you that they will be drinkable then, but give them a couple years and you will be very pleased. I don't knock the kit taste thing as I have proven to myself that it will go away with time.

 

[dfwwino]

I understand the market purpose. But any high alcohol product benefits enormously from aging, whether it be a high alcohol beer or wine. I could drink my fruit and fresh grape wines in 3-6 months if I artificially degas, but they won't taste that great. I'm sure this is precisely what the original ancient winemakers did until someone mistakenly discovered that if you set aside the wine and forget about it for over a year, it tastes remarkably better. I also hope your statement about kit taste is true. I know that I bulk aged VR's for over 2 years, and the kit taste did not go away. I hope it does go away in my Argentine Malbec with age. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[Trubador]

What about the Mosti Mondiale all juice buckets. If they age for at least a year, would they have a kit taste as well?

 

[dfwwino]

As for misleading, I recall when the kits were first marketed, there was much said about wine ready to drink in 4, 6 or 8 weeks. Winexpert still calls VR kits the industry's first28-day kits. But I will note that Winexpert is recognizing the need for aging in product materialsover time. The kit instructions that came with my Argentine Malbec that I purchased in August 2007 from George stated "Try to wait at least one month before you taste your wine--but itwill improve even more after three tosix months." The instructions for the same kit currently on Winexpert'swebsite now state: "Your wine will benefit greatly from extended ageing in the bottle. Try to wait at least six months before you try your first sample--but a year is better." So now Winexpert recognizes that not just one month, six months, but a year of aging is best. I wonder what the instructions said a few years ago. Obviously, Winexpert--and perhaps Tim--have been working to rewrite instructions that are consistent with advice Tim gives elsewhere. My point was that when I was first saw these kits on the market, I don't recall anything being said about aging and I think calling a wine kit a 28-day kit is misleading.To me, aging is part of the winemaking process and wine is not complete until aging occurs. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[dfwwino]

Trubador,


George has given me several samples of MM products and I have not yet detected any kit taste. I am making the Alljuice Castel del Papa and have not detected kit taste in the samples I have tasted. The reason for my post was that I am curious whether others who have made MM kits and are familiar with kit taste have detected it in MM products. I have not found any posts claiming such.


As for aging, there was a reason Orson Welles said "I shall drink no wine before its time."

 

[grapeman]

dfwwino, I don't recall WE or others claiming that their kits were ready to drink in 28 days. I believe they said it was ready to bottle in 28 days. There is a huge difference. To millions of people who make the wine and cannot detect KT, they are willing like you said to bottle it and start drinking. If you find it takes too long to be drinkable because you are one of the very small minority who can taste it, buy longer aging wines. I say this very respectfully. If it bothers you, don't drink it, but don't discourage others from trying less expensive wines. Not everyone has large budgets and if they are happy with the less expensive kits that may have KT to you, let them buy make and enjoy it. This subject is brought up periodically and always leads to tension between the best of friends. If you experience KT, do what it takes to deal with it and let others who aren't bothered by it do the same.


As a side note, George has carried WE for years now and MM for only about a year- who will have MM products aged well over a year yet to truly compare?

 

[dfwwino]

Appleman, I respectfully disagree. Let me give you an example. Here is an excerpt from RJ Spagnol's website characterizing its 4-week Grand Cru kit: "In just 28 days, you will have a wonderful, ready to enjoy wine of character and distinction that will gain in stature with further aging."


http://www.rjspagnols.com/brand.asp?BrandID=1


This does not state "ready to bottle" in 28 days, but "ready to enjoy," which implies drinking. I don't care what wine kit it is, I have yet to taste any wine of "character and distinction" 28 days after fermentation begins. It is baloney, plain and simple. It bothers me because it misleads new winemakers who don't read Tim's articles in Winemaker magazine about the benefits of aging or participate in forums like this. I know people who made a kit wine, tasted it after 28 days, and dropped out of kit winemaking. Fortunately, George and some other retailers are careful to educate their customers about the benefits of aging. But when these kits came out, I first bought one from a beer retailer who knew nothing about kits and gave me no similar warning.


This is really a side issue off my original topic, which was I just want to know whether those who detect kit taste (however large or small a population we may be), are you tasting kit taste in samples of MM products. I think that if no one is tasting kit taste in MM products now in less than a year, that is what I want to know, because surely it won't be there after a year or more of aging.


And I am not trying to deter others from making VR kits, or less expensive kits. Like I told Laney, if she does not taste it, don't worry about it and enjoy it. I'm glad she and others don't taste it. I wish I lacked the genetic ability to taste it. It would save me money. And I am still going to buy less expensive kits, but I'll use them as second run on fresh grape skins or add raisins. As I have indicated elsewhere, I have obtained an excellent result on a VR Zinfandel I bought from George last year that I used as a second run on Syrah grapes. It is a tremedous value given the $50 expense. If I were a new winemaker, I would definitely start with VR or Island Mist, get the basics down, and work my way through the product lines. DO NOT LET THIS TOPIC OR ANY TOPIC DETER YOU FROM TRYING ANY PRODUCT. Make and buy wine that you like. Who cares what I think. I am simply trying to find information about an issue that affects me personally due tomy unique taste buds.







Edited by: dfwwino

 

[dfwwino]

I know, I know, I am beating a dead horse. But one final thought. Wouldn't it be better if the kit manufacturers simply told us what kind of wine the manufacturer was intending with the kit. For instance, with cars, we have economy, family, sports, and luxury. I think it would be a whole lot better for someone to describe a 10 liter red wine kit as one that would produce a basic red table wine great for every day use, then claim it produces a wine of "character and distinction." I once read a post by Tim Vandergrift in which he said that Winexpert designed the Limited Edition kits to taste comparable to a $25 bottle of wine and the Estate kits to taste comparable to a $40 bottle of wine after aging. He said that when Winexpert forumlates the kits in these product lines, it does taste comparisons to bottles in that price range. I find that information very useful. Edited by: dfwwino

 

[NorthernWinos]

I have never made a kit wine...only fruit wines and canned bases....


Now you have my interest....I have to make a kit and see what all the fuss is about.....I probably wouldn't know either way....being not very 'taste sophisicated'....