WineXpert Initial SG on WE kits with grape skins

[rhattin]

As some may be aware, getting the starting SG for the last batch of LE kits from Wine Expert has been a challenge and in some cases impossible. I asked for help from their technical consultant Tim Vandergrift and here is the e-mail chain with his response:
"Ric,

Please, do not chaptalise the kit.

While the poster in winemakingtalk might have thought that it was BS, the actual gravity of the kit, when all sugars finally dissolved, was at spec (1.100)

It's not 'BS' that the grapeskin pack sugars are very slow to dissolve. Because the grapeskin pack was made in a location different from our usual processing companies, it was retort processed.

This means that the skins, rather than being mixed with grape concentrate (to preserve them, like jam with all of the sugar) and flash-pasteurised (quickly heated and cooled and then aseptically packaged) as is standard pracise with our International and Eclipse kits, they were put into the grape pack with approximately 1.5 litres of concentrate, sealed, and then boiled at standard pressure (ie, not a pressure cooker) for just over two hours.

This both crystallizes and bonds the sugars to the skins and seeds in the grape material. Effectively, adding the grapeskin pack is like adding three dozen rolls of Lifesavers candies: the sugar is all there, but no matter how hard you stir, it will not change the reading on your hydrometer, because it will not go into solution quickly, especially not into a solution already highly saturated with sugar, like the wine must.

Over time (5 days or so) all of the sugar will dissolve. During that time, however, the fermentation will be proceeding, slowly at first, but then much faster than the sugar can dissolve. By the 7th day all of the sugar has finally been released from the skin pack, and all of the sugar has been fermented into alcohol. No reading you take will exceed the original one.

I'm sorry that the instructions did not reflect this. Winexpert takes pride in clear and useful instruction sets, but in this case there was no explanation of the slow-dissolve phenomenon. On behalf of them, I'd like to apologise for any confusion this caused.

If you had added sugar to this kit, it will wind up very alcoholic, verging on the hot, with an extremely fruit-and-oak forward style. You might enjoy it, but it will certainly not taste the way the brochure described.

I hope this helps out.

--
Tim Vandergrift
Technical Consultant
Winexpert

From: Richard Hattin [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:54 AM
To: Winexpert Customer Service
Subject: Re: LE 2013 S.A. Shiraz Cabernet - Initial SG

Linda,
I contacted my compatriots on the wine Makers website for confirmation. This is what I got back:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum...et-shipped-today-42873-post499069/#post499069
Posted by: wineh
On: 03-14-2014 09:32 AM

That's twice that WE grossly overestimated the potential alcohol of a LE with grapeskins kit. They did the same thing with the Nebbiolo last year.
I worked the heck out of the Shiraz Cabernet grapeskin pack and could only get to 1.084. I contacted WE and got the BS about the viscosity of the grapeskin pack (even though I described how I got the goodies out of the pack)
As of the Shiraz Cabernet, I'm done with WE LE with grapeskins.

Just so you know, even though the Nebbiolo came up short on the % alchohol, it has turned into a very interesting wine. I suspect if you chaptalize, you will change the characteristic of the wine...I just left it as is to see if it develops.
************

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum...et-shipped-today-42873-post499105/#post499105
Posted by: tonyt
On: 03-14-2014 10:38 AM

There are many posts on the SG of the Nebbiolo, do a search. The grape pack dissolves it's sugars very slowly during fermentation. That causes the SG to appear low but still creates alcohol. I panicked and added sugar thus ended up with a 16 pav.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Wine Making mobile app

Looks like there is a problem.
Ric
************


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Winexpert Customer Service <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Ric,
Good to talk to you today. Sorry I should have mentioned do not add sugar to the batch… in my last email.

Cheers,
Linda
From: Richard Hattin [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:01 PM
To: Winexpert Customer Service
Subject: Re: LE 2013 S.A. Shiraz Cabernet - Initial SG

I have taken another SG 12 hrs later, after 2 stirrings of the primary and the best I got was 1.072. No increase and 24 hrs later it is fermenting hard and decreased to 1.065. The question remains - do I chaptalize or not?? If I should,I would like to do it when the SG is above 1.035.
Need some guidance here quickly.
My home phone is 902 823-2530.
Thanks
Ric

From: Richard Hattin [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:52 AM
To: Winexpert Customer Service
Subject: LE 2013 S.A. Shiraz Cabernet - Initial SG

I am making 3 of the LE 2013 Shiraz Cabernet, 021246 0533813 0439 ,0456 and 021160 0633613 0307.

In all three cases, over 1 month of making so far, I was unable to reach the initial SG of 1.080 - 1.100 range, even after taking SG samples when the grape skins were added. Initial SG reading were 1.072 - 1.074.

Is this normal for this LE, or should I now chaptalize it to bring it up to the proper starting SG?

I normally am able to make the lower of the recommended SG for the other kits I make.

Your recommendation please.
.Ric Hattin
Wine Time Factory
Halifax NS "

So the short answer is do NOT chaptilize, there is enough sugar.
There may be a change in some of the instructions on the next set of grapeskin kits.

Ric

 

[DoctorCAD]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that anyone with half a brain can see that the grape packs are thick and loaded with solids and sugars. Simply "stirring them in" isn't going to do anything to the SG until everything is dissolved into the must.

I guess some people are more concerned with PAVB than taste...

 

[wineh]

So, I re-read Tim's response to your inquiry, and then did a little googling of Retort Processing, and how that would be different from WEs traditional processing for Eclipse and Selection lines. Although I could not find reference to "standard pressure" processing, or how that might candy or lock in the sugars, I suspect that I am wrong, and this has merit, but this is a different story than we heard last year with the Nebbiolo.
Working on the assumption that I am wrong begs two new questions:
Why would WE (or at least their chosen supplier) resort to Retort Processing ? According to Wikipedia, that would be because it is faster, and cheaper (but not necessarily lower quality).
Why would WE adopt a method that makes it impossible for us winemakers (who according to winemaker magazine are tinkerers and want to know how things work) to calculate the approximate ABV of our wines? Once more, assuming I am wrong, and the sugar will be unlocked and fermented by the yeast I will have a product which I don't know what the ABV is, unless I simply trust a corporation that it is so. That kind of reminds me of "trust me I'm from the government, I'm here to help".
So, Ric thanks for digging for the answer, and thanks to Tim for providing a definitive answer on the sugars.

 

[tonyt]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that anyone with half a brain can see that the grape packs are thick and loaded with solids and sugars. Simply "stirring them in" isn't going to do anything to the SG until everything is dissolved into the must.

I guess some people are more concerned with PAVB than taste...

I disagree Doc. My experience till now with grape pack kits is that on day 2 the SG goes up a tenth of a point or so with simple stirring. Not so with these recent WE kits. Tim V has explained why these kits are acting differently.

Sent from my SCH-i705 using Wine Making mobile app

 

[Boatboy24]

I'm hoping to start my Shiraz Cab in the next couple weeks. I'm really anxious to see what kind of reading I get.

 

[DoctorCAD]

I disagree Doc. My experience till now with grape pack kits is that on day 2 the SG goes up a tenth of a point or so with simple stirring. Not so with these recent WE kits. Tim V has explained why these kits are acting differently.

Sent from my SCH-i705 using Wine Making mobile app

We aren't disagreeing on anything. Sure, more than 2 days will allow the solids and sugars to disperse into the must, but that isn't the issue. The issue (according to wineh) is that WE is somehow fooling or faking us or that their kits are somehow flawed. Just because you don't know the exact starting SG of a must (remember, we add yeast to our kit wines within a few hours of taking that "flawed" SG) doesn't mean that the PABV is wrong.

SG is nothing hard and fast in winemaking. Don't believe me try this. Add 2 cups of salt (or mud or chalk dust) to your must and then take a SG reading. It will indicate that your PABV is now 16% or higher. Will the real ABV be anywhere near that? No, because SG is a poor indicator of a final product in a pure chemical reaction sense.

I guess I just don't get the facination with "higher is better" alcohol values. To me, a wine with 12% alcohol tastes as good if not better than a wine with 15% alcohol.

 

[wineh]

SG is nothing hard and fast in winemaking. Don't believe me try this. Add 2 cups of salt (or mud or chalk dust) to your must and then take a SG reading. It will indicate that your PABV is now 16% or higher. Will the real ABV be anywhere near that? No, because SG is a poor indicator of a final product in a pure chemical reaction sense.

Don't think I'll be doing that

To me, a wine with 12% alcohol tastes as good if not better than a wine with 15% alcohol.

I can't disagree with that, and I make the Selection Australian Cab/Shiraz that is usually around 12%-12.5% because I like the wine, but I'd be lying if I said the higher alcohol in the advertisement of the Shiraz/Cab didn't attract my attention: I was imagining grapes grown in a very warm climate that would achieve full ripeness, and yes, lots of sugar to push the alcohol. In fact, I believe Winemaker Mag would call that one a blockbuster.
But it isn't all about alcohol, that's only one aspect. As an analogy, imagine you went car shopping and found the model you liked, that had all the options you wanted, comfortable ride, great handling and every other characteristic you desired, and the fuel economy rating was 30MPG. When you get it home for a while, you find you are only getting 20MPG. Wouldn't you take it to the dealer and ask what's up with that? If you were participating on a BB about cars and driving wouldn't you post the same question? Furthermore, if your dealer told you to relax, and the MPG would get better as the engine broke in, you would do that, and if and when the MPG got better, you would be happy, even though the ownership experience isn't only about fuel economy.
Imagine how you might feel if your dealer said "the MPG will get better over time, but you won't be able to measure it (not a perfect analogy). Would you be suspicious?

 

[tonyt]

Wine
Nice analogy.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Wine Making mobile app

 

[DoctorCAD]

Wine
Nice analogy.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Wine Making mobile app

Not really, as nowhere that I can find, does WE say what the final alcohol content will be. Its impossible for them to do so because they have NO CONTROL OVER YOUR FERMENTATION.

A better analogy is a bag of potato chips that says 3 servings on it. 3 servings for a small person that isn't hungry or 1 serving for a normal person.

 

[wineh]

I follow the instructions.

Except for squeezing the skins leaving out the sorbate and leaving the wine in a carboy for an extra month, I follow the instructions pretty close to exact. I don't do any of the tweaks many members here do. I think my analogy is quite good, thanks. And on your bag of chips, it will state how many chips is in a serving.

Premium | LE2013 Series
1 - January -South African Shiraz Cabernet with Grape Skins ** Pre-order Item ** Limited Release


This classic blend showcases the depth and ripeness of these intense grapes. Cabernet Sauvignon’s classic character of blackberry, currants, black cherry and cedar blend seamlessly with the densely packed berry, chocolate, espresso and pepper characters of Shiraz, with a hint of earthiness. As it ages it will show ever more blackberry along with plum and a hint of tobacco leading to rich vanilla and toasty-smoky notes. Definitely a carnivore’s wine, this will complement grilled meat, roasts and game, but will also work extremely well with mushroom risotto.
ALCOHOL: 14.5%*
*Alcohol level based on following Winexpert winemaking instructions
Sweetness: Dry | Body: Full