I used to be good at math - too much sugar

[ronberntson]

For my very first batch of wine, I took a 1 gallon recipe for raspberry wine and multiplied it by 4. I'm using 19 lbs of fruit - the recipe called for 12 to 16 lbs, but 19 lbs frozen was what the berry farm was selling. I should have used 9 lbs of sugar, but managed to add 13 lbs (I'm more comfortable in metric, so I'll blame that!). Right now, it's sitting in the primary - I'll wait another 24 hours before adding the yeast (Lalvin EC-1118). I'd take a hydrometer reading right now, but the must is hot and I've read where that screws up the reading. So, what's my best strategy for getting the sugar content down? I really prefer dry wines. Here's the alternatives I can see:

1. Add another 1.8 gallons of water and split the must into 2 primaries. Would I have to add more yeast and other supplements (acid blend, tannin, yeast starter, etc.)?
2. Trust that, if I ferment it long enough and watch the hydrometer, it will eventually get down to the .98 to 1 range.
3. Water it down before bottling and add neutral spirits. Perhaps add more raspberry (fruit pack???)

Any make sense? One better than the other?

Please excuse any display of ignorance in the above.

Ron

 

[Deezil]

We'd need to know the SG you're at right now, to help you much.

 

[ronberntson]

Bad Math

I'll let the must cool and measure the SG tomorrow and post.

 

[Sirs]

you can still have a dry wine even with that much sugar you'll just have more alcohol in it. I would'nt add more water if you can get a few more puonds of berries and add to it

 

[SBWs]

Ron,

The best option, after you know the S.G., would be to split and then add more water and fruit (at least 4 lbs to the gallon) until the S.G. is betwen 1.080 and 1.090.

Next would be to split and add either White Grape Juice or Apple Juice until the S.G. is down between 1.080 and 1.090. This will give you a different taste but both are good. Maybe use White Grape Juice in one and Apple Juice in the other so you have two different wines in the end.

And yes you should add additional chemicals if you increase the volume of the must. I didn't see Pectic Enzyme on your list and this is a big one for fruit wines, it helps break down the fruit and extract the juice. However I myself would stay away from adding anymore tannin and you should never add acid without testing first. Fruits very seldom have the same acid content from year to year or place to place.

I've always been told if you want a good wine always make sure of two things, first that the Starting Specific Gravity (Sugar) is right, second make sure the acid level is correct in the must before pitching the yeast.

 

[ronberntson]

learning to read the hydormeter

So, I've let it cool and made my first ever hydrometer reading - not as easy as it seems with 57 year old eyes. My French hydrometer (the French would never lie or exaggerate ) has two numeric scales. The must reads 110 on one scale and 50 on the other. The "word" scale says its SG is between Beer and Table wine. Did I not add enough sugar to get a dry table wine with 10-12% alcohol?

I think I'm reading the hydrometer correctly, as I tested some Turbo Yeast ust I've got going and got a reading of 1.21, which I think makes sense.

Thanks
Ron

 

[ronberntson]

I should actually read every reply before I post. According to SBWs, my 1.10 isn't unreasonable. Do the French like their table wine to be alcohol rocket fuel, or am I just figuring out the sweetness?

Yes, I added the Peptic this morning after it cooled.

 

[ronberntson]

Let me be even more random. The room I'm doing the fermenting in is 19C / 68F - the cold air from the air conditioner obviously settles in the basement!

This is, from my reading on the low side and it should take longer to ferment? Am I right on that?
Ron

 

[buddy]

So, I've let it cool and made my first ever hydrometer reading - not as easy as it seems with 57 year old eyes. My French hydrometer (the French would never lie or exaggerate ) has two numeric scales. The must reads 110 on one scale and 50 on the other. The "word" scale says its SG is between Beer and Table wine. Did I not add enough sugar to get a dry table wine with 10-12% alcohol?

I think I'm reading the hydrometer correctly, as I tested some Turbo Yeast ust I've got going and got a reading of 1.21, which I think makes sense.

Thanks
Ron

I'm trying to make sense of the numbers that you posted, but coming from the same Great White North as you, I think I might understand.
Is your hydrometer made in France by the Alla company? If so I have the same hydrometer as you do.
The number 50 that you are referring to represents a specific gravity of 1.050. I'm not sure where the number "110" fits in.
Does your hydrometer have multi-colored bands of red, green, orange and white? And is your number 50 on a white band that is straddled by an orange band on the top and a green band on the bottom. If so then we have the same type of hydrometer.
If this is the case then you need not have worried about adding too much sugar, you actually need more as this reading represents a potential alcohol of only 6.5%.

 

[buddy]

I reread your post and I think that 13 pounds of sugar should be giving you quite a high SG for a 4 gallon batch. I'm thinking that there might be two reasons for this discrepancy. Perhaps the sugar is not fully dissolved in the must causing a low reading on the hydrometer or else if you were using metric measurements perhaps there was an error in the conversion to pounds and gallons.
If you have the quantities that you used in metric then post those numbers so we can do a double check for you.

 

[ronberntson]

Yes, we have the same hydrometer and you are accurate about the bands (they are labeled "beer" and "table wine"). The 110, now that I squint at it really hard, is labeled "approximate sugar per litre". I am using the recipe on Jack Keller's site, but checking other recipes, the 2.25 lbs of sugar is not that unusual. Now that I measured what's actually in the primary, there are 40 litres of must - thus the low sugar. Luckily, the must has a very "raspberry" flavour and a sweetness much like soda. If it ferments out to something weaker, then I'll have to add some kind of flavouring.

So, with a goal of 1090 SG (12% ABV), starting at 1050 SG the formula I've found is (1090-1050)*2.7*40=5.28 Kilos of sugar.

Does that make sense? For a fruit wine, will 12% ABV kill of the taste? I'll have done in a lot of sugar once I'm finished. I assume I'll have to heat some of the must to dissolve the sugar - or is there another strategy that doesn't introduce more liquid?

Thanks for your help

Ron

 

[buddy]

Yes, we have the same hydrometer and you are accurate about the bands (they are labeled "beer" and "table wine"). The 110, now that I squint at it really hard, is labeled "approximate sugar per litre". I am using the recipe on Jack Keller's site, but checking other recipes, the 2.25 lbs of sugar is not that unusual. Now that I measured what's actually in the primary, there are 40 litres of must - thus the low sugar. Luckily, the must has a very "raspberry" flavour and a sweetness much like soda. If it ferments out to something weaker, then I'll have to add some kind of flavouring.

So, with a goal of 1090 SG (12% ABV), starting at 1050 SG the formula I've found is (1090-1050)*2.7*40=5.28 Kilos of sugar.

Does that make sense? For a fruit wine, will 12% ABV kill of the taste? I'll have done in a lot of sugar once I'm finished. I assume I'll have to heat some of the must to dissolve the sugar - or is there another strategy that doesn't introduce more liquid?

Thanks for your help

Ron

Okay, now the numbers are starting to make sense.
40 litres of must represents 10.6 US gallons (8.8 imperial gallons).
It looks like your calculation for additional sugar is correct 5.28 Kilos (11.6 pounds).
I believe that you are way to light on your fruit. I think that you should at least double that quantity for your wine to have any fruit taste.
You may be able to taste the raspberry now but after fermentation most of that flavoring will be gone.
I've never done a raspberry wine so maybe someone else who has more experience here will give you some positive direction.

 

[buddy]

After giving this some thought,I think the the calculation for the additional sugar is too high. The 40 litres (10.6 US gallons) of must also includes the volume of the raspberries so this should be considered when adding more sugar.
Also if you add more fruit it also will contain sugar.
It is best to add sugar a little at a time until you reach your desired SG.

 

[ronberntson]

I'm getting paranoid about my volume math. So, my primary has a wash that is 40 cm in radius and 150 cm high. I make this to be 39 litres. This is the primary:

The primary is likely 45 litres - and 39/45 is 80% - looks about right in the picture.

The original recipe called for 30 litres of water (7.5 pints x 4), so I need to make up 9 litres (19 pints). This means I essentially have created a recipe that is 6 times the original. So, I would need to add 2 K of sugar (2.25 lbs x 2) and 3.2 K (3 to 4 lbs x 2) of fruit. Hopefully I can find frozen raspberries from one of the local orchards. If I'm buying them in the store, I suspect the packages are 280 grams (10 oz), which is 11.5 packages.

I finally figured out my mistake. I thought that there were 2 pints to a gallon - forgot about that whole quart business. My lesson is - hence forth convert all recipes to metric!

Buddy - thanks for all your help and attention. I've driven over the top of Superior, but have never gotten farther North. All I know is that apparently Toronto doesn't pay much attention! For this sin, they got the Maple Leafs.

Ron

 

[ronberntson]

Whoops - for some reason the picture didn't load.

 

[seth8530]

I can help you if you post the original recipe and then post what ammts you used. And yes, i would call 12 percent the limit for a fruit wine. That is... If you really want your fruit to come through.

 

[ronberntson]

I can help you if you post the original recipe and then post what ammts you used. And yes, i would call 12 percent the limit for a fruit wine. That is... If you really want your fruit to come through.

Thanks for the offer. So, here's where I'm at. I managed to find frozen raspberries 1.8 Kg for $CDN 10 – I bought 2 cases and this works out to the right amount of fruit.

The recipe is the 1st choice from Jack Keller: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/redrasp.asp

So, my questions -
1.As far as I can tell, my calculations above are correct if I follow the Keller recipe – however it definitely appears as if he is going for about a 12% ABV (I'm not fully confident that this is the case). Right now I plan to add 2 Kg of sugar, following the recipe, but I do want a very raspberry taste – what would you add to be more like 9% ABV?

2.It makes sense that I have to pitch in the appropriate additives in proportion. How many packets of yeast (Lalvin EC1118) should I use?

3.Can I go ahead and use some of the must when I'm adding sugar. What's the minimum liquid to sugar ratio I can get away with?

There, I think that's got it. Sorry about the metric, but I'm really trying to avoid confusion and error on my part.

Thanks
Ron

 

[seth8530]

Nothing wrong with metric, im an engineering student (;.. So the original is 12 percent abv? and you want yours to be lighter at about 9 percent? What i would do is instead of adding in sugar i would make a syrup out of blackberry juice by reducing it on the stove..

Use the formula MV=MV where V is volume and M is the concentration of sugar or alcohol. (or any concentration in the world) The right side of the equation is your ending side, the left side is the starting side...

So say you want to end up with a sugar or alcohol of so and so you would say my initial sugar is 1.200 ( blackberry syrup) and i have 3 liters of it. You know the ending volume will be your initial volume plus 3 liters. and you can algebraically solve for your ending sugar level after you combine these 2 things..

1.200(3)=M(3+39liters) This will give you how many points the three liters of blackberry syrup should add to your must.

This will tell you the ratio of sugars to must you can get away with..

Now you dont need to scale up the ammt of yeast you need because it will grow untill it reaches an equilibrium point.

Your ABV level is your choice but i think if you using a syrup made from the fruit you want to use it should work out better for you.

Also, i recommend a different yeast, one that would better preserve the fruit character. perhaps d-47 and ferment it with nutrient addition (boiled yeast hulls work in a pinch) and ferment it low and slow..

Sorry it took so long