WineXpert Extended time in secondary

[jsiddall]

I have been following another thread about doing an extended time in secondary:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f84/i-just-got-gsm-international-grenach-syrah-mourvedre-45548/

...because I have a WE MLR on the go and it's also going to end up being about 3 weeks in secondary before I can get back to it. However, my carboy is not topped up, per the WE instructions. My question is whether this excess head space (6 gal carboy) is going to cause issues with oxidation over the next few weeks? When I racked to the carboy the SG was 1.000 and it's burping the airlock every couple of seconds so that space must be full of CO2. Is that good enough to protect it?

I am a bit worried about topping up with water because I don't want it thinner, but all the wine I have on hand is sulfited and I don't want that to kill the remaining fermentation to dry.

One final question: is the extended time in secondary equivalent to bulk aging in terms of developing flavors in the wine or is this extended secondary time effectively wasted?

Thanks for any advice,

Jeff

 

[Bartman]

I'm a little confused - you have racked a wine that had just gotten down to 1.000 S.G. to a 6 gal. carboy, and it is still releasing gas (de-gassing), but you do not have it topped up as recommended and have to leave it for about 3 weeks? If that's right, so far, so good, but leaving it for 3 weeks is a gamble. 1 week or so, I would say no big deal - the CO2 will ensure that it doesn't oxidize appreciably. But 2-3 weeks? That's pushing it, because once it finishes de-gassing, which may go faster since a greater surface area is exposed to release gas from, than if the carboy was properly filled. On the other hand, 1.000 S.G. is pretty close to dry, so the available wine you could top up with may not have much impact on the nearly-complete fermentation.

The safe, conservative call would be to top it up with whatever wine you have available and hope it is basically done fermenting. Personally, I would gamble that it will keep de-gassing long enough to keep the O2 away (along with the properly-filled airlock), so it can finish fermenting without interruption. Actually, what I personally would do, is to add marbles to the carboy to displace that headspace air - and that is precisely why I have collected a lot of glass marbles for use in winemaking. I would recommend you do the same, but that's not really what you asked. :/

 

[Bartman]

As to your last question, that's mainly what had me puzzled: extended time in the carboy IS bulk-aging. Not sure what else you might be thinking bulk-aging is - the alternative is bottle-aging, and both are useful in developing the flavors and subtlety in wines, especially red ones.

 

[richmke]

I'm a newbie, but I have been trying to think about these things from a physics point of view.

The typical instructions are:
1) Primary for a week
2) Rack to Secondary for 10 days
3) Degass, Clarify, and Stabilize

So, your "extended time in secondary" is between steps 2 and 3. Finish fermenting, but before stabilizing (adding k-meta).

The head space (air) in your carboy is primarily CO2. The burping of the airlock is likely from degassing, and not necessarily from continued fermentation. Some fermentation is occurring, but not much.

From a physics point of view:
1) The airlock is a two way airlock. If the air pressure rises rapidly, it can force air into the carboy. The airlock keeps O2 from freely getting in, but under certain situations, it can get it.
2) The CO2 in the head space will help minimize O2 problems. CO2 is heavier than O2, so most of the O2 that does get into your carboy will sit on top of the CO2 (but some will diffuse into the CO2 layer).
3) The CO2 in the wine will help protect it from O2. First, as it continues to degass, any O2 in the head space tends to be forced out first. Second, the dissolved CO2 keeps other gasses (O2) from dissolving in.
4) The completion of fermentation may take up any O2 that does find its way in.

My guess is that if you are extending the normal 10 day period between steps 2 and 3 to 21 days, it should be ok.

One final question: is the extended time in secondary equivalent to bulk aging in terms of developing flavors in the wine or is this extended secondary time effectively wasted?

I think it helps. The chemistry is going on all the time. In the grand scheme of things, the additional 10 days is not much anyway.

 

[jsiddall]

As to your last question, that's mainly what had me puzzled: extended time in the carboy IS bulk-aging. Not sure what else you might be thinking bulk-aging is - the alternative is bottle-aging, and both are useful in developing the flavors and subtlety in wines, especially red ones.

Yes, but typically "bulk aging" refers to aging after stabilizing/fining. In this case the extra time is before that.

The typical instructions are:
1) Primary for a week
2) Rack to Secondary for 10 days
3) Degass, Clarify, and Stabilize

So, your "extended time in secondary" is between steps 2 and 3. Finish fermenting, but before stabilizing (adding k-meta).

The head space (air) in your carboy is primarily CO2. The burping of the airlock is likely from degassing, and not necessarily from continued fermentation. Some fermentation is occurring, but not much.

From a physics point of view:
1) The airlock is a two way airlock. If the air pressure rises rapidly, it can force air into the carboy. The airlock keeps O2 from freely getting in, but under certain situations, it can get it.

My guess is that if you are extending the normal 10 day period between steps 2 and 3 to 21 days, it should be ok.

I think it helps. The chemistry is going on all the time. In the grand scheme of things, the additional 10 days is not much anyway.

Yes, agree with your analysis. Ultimately the question is whether degassing over a few weeks prevent O2 from getting through the airlock? I am guessing it will but as you say there is a bit of gamble there. I think I will just leave it as is and hope for the best. I think the O2 getting in would be from drastic temperature changes, but I don't expect any of those.

 

[Bartman]

Yes, but typically "bulk aging" refers to aging after stabilizing/fining. In this case the extra time is before that.

Ah, see, I don't use fining agents if I am bulk aging, which I do 90% of the time. I allow gravity and time to do the refinement for me - fewer non-wine ingredients going into the wine, plus it discourages me from bottling too soon.

And, to me, 'stabilizing' simply means adding a bit of k-meta (and more as needed over bulk-aging time), but once it is fully fermented, it should be pretty stable, assuming your starting S.G. was at least 1.060 (it's usually significantly higher than that).

 

[jsiddall]

Yes, but typically "bulk aging" refers to aging after stabilizing/fining. In this case the extra time is before that.
Ah, see, I don't use fining agents if I am bulk aging, which I do 90% of the time. I allow gravity and time to do the refinement for me - fewer non-wine materials going into the wine that wine, plus it discourages me from bottling too soon.

And, to me, 'stabilizing' simply means adding a bit of k-meta (and more as needed over bulk-aging time), but once it is fully fermented, it should be pretty stable, assuming your starting S.G. was at least 1.060 (it's usually significantly higher than that).

Right, in my case I am making this mainly because it is an early drinker so time is not in my side.

As far as I can tell stabilizing is basically adding K-meta, but of course a big reason for that is to protect against oxdation.

 

[Dhaynes]

I have read about the practice of leaving the wine on the lees for an extended period of time to add flavor to the wine. The dead yeast hulls apparently have a number of amino acids that add complexity to the wine. Seems more common with whites than reds. Also whites seem to be able to sit on the lees longer than reds without picking up rotting flavors.

In the thread you reference it sounded like they were waiting longer to stabilize and clear to let the wine sit on the lees longer. I don't think the purpose was to bulk age althought it would certainly qualify as bulk aging.


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[DoctorCAD]

Per physics, oxygen will get into your carboy where it will mix with whatever gas thats in there can oxidize your wine. There is no escaping that.

Sulfites will NOT KILL A FERMENTATION. Top off with wine.