Chlorine based cleaners and wines

[ChuckD]

Serious question… I have read some very emphatic comments here on how chlorine should never be near a winery. None explained why and I’m curious.

I would note that I do have a container of chlorine disinfecting wipes in the winery/basement bathroom and, while I don’t clean wine-making equipment with them I do use them to clean up spills and wipe down the outside of carboys.

 

[cmason1957]

Cork Taint is the main reason to not have chlorine based disinfectents in the winery. One of the causes of Cork Taint can occur when sodium hypochlorite (bleach) reacts with lignin, a naturally occurring wood compound. This creates a compound called 2,4,6-trichlorophenol (TCP). Mold, yeast and bacteria then convert this compound into TCA.

https://www.winemag.com/2020/08/20/cork-taint-wine-fault-guide/
and there are many other articles that cover the same thing.

 

[BigDaveK]

Darn, @cmason1957 beat me by minutes. I read the same thing about the possibility of TCA.

 

[ibglowin]

Serious question… I have read some very emphatic comments here on how chlorine should never be near a winery. None explained why and I’m curious.

I would note that I do have a container of chlorine disinfecting wipes in the winery/basement bathroom and, while I don’t clean wine-making equipment with them I do use them to clean up spills and wipe down the outside of carboys.

I think I have screamed a few times and quoted this as well at least a dozen times over the years.........

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/fs/fs-50-w.pdf
https://winemakermag.com/wine-wizard/use-of-bleach-in-a-winery

 

[ChuckD]

Thanks for the replies. I had been thinking maybe trace chlorine somehow tainted the wine.

I read the article and it’s more justification for switching to the synthetic corks (Nomacork).

ETA. Thanks @ibglowin. After reading the bulletin I’m taking the disinfectant wipes out of the winery too!

 

[ibglowin]

Thanks for the replies. I had been thinking maybe trace chlorine somehow tainted the wine.

I read the article and it’s more justification for switching to the synthetic corks (Nomacork).

I have bottled close to 2000 bottles of wine over the years and never had a single corked wine. Not a single one. I don't use bleach anywhere in the winery and I have used the Lafitte 1+1 agglomerated corks since 2009. They use natural cork (and agglomerated) that is treated. I have opened wines made all the way back to 2012 that are still in excellent condition.

 

[cmason1957]

Thanks for the replies. I had been thinking maybe trace chlorine somehow tainted the wine.

I read the article and it’s more justification for switching to the synthetic corks (Nomacork).

ETA. Thanks @ibglowin. After reading the bulletin I’m taking the disinfectant wipes out of the winery too!

TCA can show up from more than just corks, it could be in the air, it could be on any oak you add to the wine, pretty much anywhere and anything.

I had read somewhere (It may have been from here - TCA & Natural Hydraulic Lime - Saint Astier® Natural Hydraulic Lime) That cork manufacturers were probably to blame at one point due to sloppy manufacturing techniques, but have improved their sanitation practices over the years and probably are not as likely to be to blame any longer.

or possibly from here - Does Your Wine Smell Funky? TCA May Not Be to Blame | Wine Spectator

 

[vinny]

Thanks for the replies. I had been thinking maybe trace chlorine somehow tainted the wine.

I read the article and it’s more justification for switching to the synthetic corks (Nomacork).

ETA. Thanks @ibglowin. After reading the bulletin I’m taking the disinfectant wipes out of the winery too!

Just to play devils advocate, I use the pink chlorine and tsp mixture to clean and sanitize. It was the only one available to me locally. I looked into starsan, but came to the conclusion that although regarded as safe there are still chemicals in it that you are leaving on your equipment. It states that IF mixed correctly Starsan is safe. This implies to me that in higher doses it would not be.

That was enough to stick with rinsing for me and there is no point in paying the premium for a non rinse product if you are going to rinse it off.

I asked the same question, and I was already using synthetic corks so I figured it was a non issue. I intentionally spray a weak bleach solution on everything in and around my wine making area, including equipment.

Just for something to ponder.

 

[winemaker81]

It states that IF mixed correctly Starsan is safe. This implies to me that in higher doses it would not be.

I think you're misunderstanding. Star San contains phosphoric acid -- undiluted it will burn you. I don't mean burn a hole in you like Alien blood, but it's not good for your skin. This is true of OneStep and other additives -- if in undiluted form, I'd rinse immediately.

Properly diluted, it's safe. And the residue on equipment is low ppm, so it's not a problem.

That said, if it gets on your skin, rinse it.

My college education included physics and chemistry labs, so I was taught to rinse off anything that gets on my skin. I don't freak out if I get diluted K-meta, OneStep, or Star San on my skin, but I rinse within a minute or two. It may not be necessary, but generally speaking, it's a good precaution. By the time you figure out you should have rinsed something off, it's a bit too late.

 

[winemanden]

Star San contains phosphoric acid -- undiluted it will burn you

I'm sure I read somewhere that Coca-Cola contains phosphoric acid. I may be wrong, at my age memory goes haywire sometimes.

 

[vinny]

I think you're misunderstanding

No, I was just a chemical Nazi. I tried K-meta and even with the fan in the adjoining bathroom on and a window cracked it was strong. The bleach solution is barely perceptible.

I could only find Starsan for twice the regular price on Amazon and I looked up the data sheet. I can't remember what specifically made it questionable in my mind, but the no rinse part was just the clincher on an already overpriced option.

I went with the path of least resistance.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Coca-Cola contains phosphoric acid. I may be wrong, at my age memory goes haywire sometimes.

Coke has 17 mg/100 ml, which is ~60 mg / 12 US oz can. A mechanic I frequented years ago kept a pan of Coke for soaking rusty equipment. IIRC, he preferred Coca Cola for soaking parts, but drank RC Cola.

 

[ibglowin]

There is just zero reason to use anything related to bleach in the winery in 2023. Don't want to clean with Starsan, use Oxiclean then.

 

[vinny]

There is just zero reason to use anything related to bleach in the winery in 2023. Don't want to clean with Starsan, use Oxiclean then.

I kinda look at it the other way around. There is no reason to get worked up about cork taint with no cork in the winery in 2023. Plus, I sanitize in the laundry room and bottle where I store my wine.

I sanitize in the bathroom when tasting and bring the equipment back in, but even if it was in the room, it is a simple spray and rinse. I don't see the reason to get worked up about it, but I have never experienced cork taint, either.

 

[winemaker81]

I kinda look at it the other way around. There is no reason to get worked up about cork taint with no cork in the winery in 2023. Plus, I sanitize in the laundry room and bottle where I store my wine.

I sanitize in the bathroom when tasting and bring the equipment back in, but even if it was in the room, it is a simple spray and rinse. I don't see the reason to get worked up about it, but I have never experienced cork taint, either.

Like with many things in winemaking, once you discover the problem, it's too late. Keep in mind that I made wine for 40 years before personally encountering H2S (helped others with it, but it never happened to me). Just 'cuz it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't.

I sincerely hope you never have a problem.

 

[cmason1957]

I kinda look at it the other way around. There is no reason to get worked up about cork taint with no cork in the winery in 2023. Plus, I sanitize in the laundry room and bottle where I store my wine.

I sanitize in the bathroom when tasting and bring the equipment back in, but even if it was in the room, it is a simple spray and rinse. I don't see the reason to get worked up about it, but I have never experienced cork taint, either.

Perhaps I didn't say this clearly enough. Cork Taint doesn't just come from corks. It can come from wood (that is oak), it can be in your air, it could be on the grapes/fruit or part of the kit and it could just be bad luck.

Or maybe what I should say is Cork Taint is a bad name, leading folks to believe if I use closures without cork, I won't have a problem.

 

[vinny]

Perhaps I didn't say this clearly enough. Cork Taint doesn't just come from corks. It can come from wood (that is oak), it can be in your air, it could be on the grapes/fruit or part of the kit and it could just be bad luck.

Or maybe what I should say is Cork Taint is a bad name, leading folks to believe if I use closures without cork, I won't have a problem.

Come on!

I was seriously rocking the stubborn indifference. I think I even sprinkled on a hint of ignorance for flair... Some arrogance for extra pizzazz!

Now I have to go order some Oxiclean off of Amazon. It might take 10 years, but you know it's gonna bite me now!

 

[BigDaveK]

All I have to add is you guys are a hoot! I love this forum!!

 

[wbhutchins]

Warning: Newbie question...
On the subject of corks, do you soak or spray with star San solution before bottling? Or just cork it and forget about it for a few years? Lol

 

[vinny]

Most go with the assumption that if the bag is freshly opened they are good to go in the bottle.